Symbolising a Thing = Doing that Thing?

[Purple Knight]

Question for debate: If something is morally wrong, is engaging in symbolism of that thing also morally wrong?

Do the bad apples spoil the apples that are next to them? That happened historically to be next to them? If an evil person touches something, does that thing become evil?

A few examples (which not everyone agrees to the validity of, bear in mind):
Killing Native Americans was wrong, so Thanksgiving, which is related to killing Native Americans, is probably wrong.
Christmas and Easter are wrong for Christians because they contain Pagan symbolism and traditions.
Worshiping Lucifer the Light is wrong, so eating candy red hots with a picture of a cartoon devil on the package is wrong.
The Roman salute is wrong because Nazis used a version of it.
Hurting animals is wrong, so watching any media where an animal is hurt (even if no real animal was hurt in the process) is also wrong.
Eating babies is wrong, so eating a cake shaped like a baby is also wrong.
Eating meat is wrong, therefore eating tofu that is shaped like animals is also wrong.

One problem that comes to mind is that if we accept the validity of previous history tainting what would otherwise be innocuous actions, eventually no remaining actions will be permissible. Eventually every action will come to be associated with evil and then put aside. This will happen all the more quickly since the new evil people, even more than good people, don't want to be associated with other evil people - they want to hide the fact that they're evil, so they especially must select new actions and symbols. And thus, every generation, evil people do new things which must then be removed from the pool of acceptable actions.

As for the lesser question of symbolism, such as eating tofu shaped like animals, on certain levels it can give an ick reaction, but does that mean we mustn't do it, if no real animals are hurt? Arguably people (but not animals) can be emotionally hurt by something like that, but is that the sole reason one ought not engage in it?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

If something is morally wrong, is engaging in symbolism of that thing also morally wrong?

Probably, but there are caveats.
One, we have to decide what's moral and what's not and come to an agreement on it, which will never happen so;
Two, it depends on what is being talked about. Your Thanksgiving example: simply participating in it doesn't mean you're OK with what happened in the past. We have the ability not only to not forget about the past, but choose what to accept and what to reject, sometimes at the same time.
If we spend too much time looking in to the past, we could likely find something every day of the year that's happened that world 'turn our stomachs'. That seems counter productive.
Three, who gets to decide what's bad and what's not? Back to the Thanksgiving example: who gets to decide that a holiday that's currently about family and eating is bad because of what happened in the past? The Trail of Tears - that's a horrible bit of Native American history. Should those designated areas be 'off limits' because of what happened? Should people living in those areas be forced to be ashamed for something they had zero part in and, most likely, would have been against?

I think we need to be mindful of history, respect it, try to fix what we can when we can, then move forward, together.

[JehovahsWitness]

Question for debate: If something is morally wrong, is engaging in symbolism of that thing also morally wrong?

You did not define what you mean by "engaging in symbolism" so I cannot answer your question directly.

As one of Jehovahs Witnesses we do no participate in secular or religious celebrations whose origins we believe God would not approve of. Nor do we venerate (salute, bow/kneel before, kiss etc) religious or national objects or symbols, we view such a thing as a type of idolatry. Our motor is not only how we feel about the past but how God has expressed in his word the bible feels about a particular activity.

As for eating a cake shaped like a baby, this would I think, be objectionable to everyone unless they are completely divorced from an understanding of the power of symbolism or are in favor of canibalism.





JW

To read more, please go to to other posts related to

CHRISTMAS , .EASTER and ... HALLOWEEN

[nobspeople]

Question for debate: If something is morally wrong, is engaging in symbolism of that thing also morally wrong?

You did not define what you mean by "engaging in symbolism" so I cannot answer your question directly.

As one of Jehovahs Witnesses we do no participate in secular or religious celebrations whose origins we believe God would not approve of. Nor do we venerate (salute, bow/kneel before, kiss etc) religious or national objects or symbols, we view such a thing as a type of idolatry. Our motor is not only how we feel about the past but how God has expressed in his word the bible feels about a particular activity.

As for eating a cake shaped like a baby, this would I think, be objectionable to everyone unless they are completely divorced from an understanding of the power of symbolism or are in favor of canibalism.





JW

To read more, please go to to other posts related to

CHRISTMAS , .EASTER and ... HALLOWEEN

is good, no matter the shape: round, square, tiered, bundt, cup, balls, layer, sheet, rolls or conical, bear, person, bunny, fish....
Just please, no nuts

[Purple Knight]

As for eating a cake shaped like a baby, this would I think, be objectionable to everyone unless they are completely divorced from an understanding of the power of symbolism or are in favor of cannibalism.

It's certainly a little off-putting. But does that equal a moral wrong? If so, why?

They're not engaging in cannibalism. They're just doing something that looks like cannibalism. What is the power of symbolism?

Three, who gets to decide what's bad and what's not? Back to the Thanksgiving example: who gets to decide that a holiday that's currently about family and eating is bad because of what happened in the past? The Trail of Tears - that's a horrible bit of Native American history. Should those designated areas be 'off limits' because of what happened? Should people living in those areas be forced to be ashamed for something they had zero part in and, most likely, would have been against?

I suppose it depends on whether people who recall the bad thing can be trusted not to then go and do the bad thing. I think JW cut right to the point when he posted that picture. It recalls cannibalism. The people therein are acting out cannibalism.

But should there be no plays because someone must be the villain? Does the player upon the stage do wrong when he acts out poisoning? Well, no more Hamlet, then.

I'll tell you where my reaction comes in and it's very, very silly. At least, I think it is. It's those little cadbury eggs with the delicious sugar shells and the amazingly creamy milk chocolate within. I look forward to them every year. Now, why are they shaped like eggs? Well, to celebrate finding eggs. And why is there a tradition of finding eggs? Well, because primitive people looked forward to spring not because Cadbury made chocolate eggs for them, but because they would go out and steal the eggs off the nests of wild birds and eat them, half-formed baby birds and all. Probably raw. Okay, ick.

Eating cadbury eggs recalls that bad thing, but am I therefore doing that bad thing? Or as bad as? I've always been taught no. But lately society has moved toward teaching yes.

is good, no matter the shape: round, square, tiered, bundt, cup, balls, layer, sheet, rolls or conical, bear, person, bunny, fish....
Just please, no nuts

No way! The cake in the picture is disgusting! Blech!

...It's chocolate cake. Yuck! I like white or yellow cake. Or some sort of flavour cake, like pecan.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #5]

I think JW cut right to the point when he posted that picture. It recalls cannibalism.

That depends on the state of mind of the individual. To me, it was a human shaped cake that represents, well, cake. Nothing more. We can always see more if we try. I suggest, many times, just seeing what's there. In this case, a human shaped cake. No cannibalisms or anything negative (based on the photo). Seeing it as more than cake is worse, to me, than seeing it as cannibalism. I worry about those that would see it that way.

I'll tell you where my reaction comes in and it's very, very silly. At least, I think it is. It's those little cadbury eggs with the delicious sugar shells and the amazingly creamy milk chocolate within. I look forward to them every year. Now, why are they shaped like eggs? Well, to celebrate finding eggs. And why is there a tradition of finding eggs? Well, because primitive people looked forward to spring not because Cadbury made chocolate eggs for them, but because they would go out and steal the eggs off the nests of wild birds and eat them, half-formed baby birds and all. Probably raw. Okay, ick.

I loved those things for about a month. Then they became too sweet and then, just nasty. I think things like baluts are worse things to think about than a candy egg.

Eating cadbury eggs recalls that bad thing, but am I therefore doing that bad thing? Or as bad as? I've always been taught no. But lately society has moved toward teaching yes.

How is society teaching it as a bad thing? Because of the sugar? I've not seen anything in society showing anything different

No way! The cake in the picture is disgusting! Blech!

...It's chocolate cake. Yuck! I like white or yellow cake. Or some sort of flavour cake, like pecan.

Chocolate is over rated IMO. I prefer red velvet.

[brunumb]

I suppose it depends on whether people who recall the bad thing can be trusted not to then go and do the bad thing. I think JW cut right to the point when he posted that picture. It recalls cannibalism. The people therein are acting out cannibalism.

As gross as the ceremonial eating of the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood?

[Purple Knight]

I suppose it depends on whether people who recall the bad thing can be trusted not to then go and do the bad thing. I think JW cut right to the point when he posted that picture. It recalls cannibalism. The people therein are acting out cannibalism.

As gross as the ceremonial eating of the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood?

I'll be as charitable as I can and say that because that act was not evil, symbolising it isn't evil either.

But yes, that's off-putting to me too. I don't think that should mean I get to tell them not to do it though. As long as they don't go out and slaughter people to eat I don't see a problem with it. I don't personally see a problem with the cake either. I'm not ruling out there being one; I just don't know what it is.

[Purple Knight]

How is society teaching it as a bad thing? Because of the sugar? I've not seen anything in society showing anything different

Society doesn't teach that eating Cadbury eggs is bad, but it does sometimes teach that symbolising a thing is morally equal to doing that thing. So when I hear that Thanksgiving is bad because of its history, I wonder if eating chocolate eggs is bad because of the prehistory of springtime being associated with eggs because cavemen stole wild birds' eggs and ate them, embryos and all.

[nobspeople]

How is society teaching it as a bad thing? Because of the sugar? I've not seen anything in society showing anything different

Society doesn't teach that eating Cadbury eggs is bad, but it does sometimes teach that symbolising a thing is morally equal to doing that thing. So when I hear that Thanksgiving is bad because of its history, I wonder if eating chocolate eggs is bad because of the prehistory of springtime being associated with eggs because cavemen stole wild birds' eggs and ate them, embryos and all.

Ah gotcha

I don't subscribe, personally, to symbolism much simply because if you look hard enough at something, you can find just about anything wrong (or right) with it.
I think when people try to symbolize things (like a candy egg or a human shaped cake, for examples), it shows their 'need' to see something more, causing them to waste time and miss the here-n-now.
But to each their own I suppose