The need for faith

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

The need for faith

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

We're told 'you have to have faith' or 'have faith - it will work out' or any number of claims that speak to the need to have faith.

Outside of salvation (as there's a debate if it's by faith or works or grace or a combination of, that salvation is obtained), why?
Why is faith needed?

Does having faith allow the outcome of a certain event to change? Does God favor those that have faith and protect or grant them a different outcome than those without faith?
Give you supernatural abilities? Does faith allow you to breath underwater on your own?
Does faith pay the bills? Does your utility company take 'faith' as payment?
Does faith make you happy or sad? If you're having a good day, does faith come in and make your day terrible?

Why have faith at all? What's the point?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #51

Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:08 pm
To put it otherwise, to lack faith is to be partially insane. Or to partake of irrationality.
You can put it anyway you like. Now that you've chosen one, all you have to do is provide verifiable evidence that your assertion is true.


Tcg
I have not said all mental health illnesses are due to lack of faith.

I am saying that lack of faith is irrational, and therefore relates with mental health crises, which often involve irrational worldviews.

So no, I don't.
Stating your assertion differently doesn't relieve you of your responsibility to support your claim. You are still making a claim and have failed to provide verifiable evidence to support it.


Tcg

User avatar
Dimmesdale
Sage
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Vaikuntha Dham
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #52

Post by Dimmesdale »

brunumb wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:18 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:57 pm Faith is a great light bringer. It reveals truth.
Faith can be a source of hope, but it does not necessarily reveal any truth. Faith allows one to believe in something that is completely false as easily as something that is true.
True faith in my opinion always reveals some truth. Even if that is only a sense of peace and well-being. Those emotions are indicators of reality. They point to inner truths.

User avatar
Dimmesdale
Sage
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Vaikuntha Dham
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #53

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:21 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:08 pm
To put it otherwise, to lack faith is to be partially insane. Or to partake of irrationality.
You can put it anyway you like. Now that you've chosen one, all you have to do is provide verifiable evidence that your assertion is true.


Tcg
I have not said all mental health illnesses are due to lack of faith.

I am saying that lack of faith is irrational, and therefore relates with mental health crises, which often involve irrational worldviews.

So no, I don't.
Stating your assertion differently doesn't relieve you of your responsibility to support your claim. You are still making a claim and have failed to provide verifiable evidence to support it.


Tcg
What exactly did I assert?

User avatar
Dimmesdale
Sage
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Vaikuntha Dham
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #54

Post by Dimmesdale »

brunumb wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:20 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:08 pm To put it otherwise, to lack faith is to be partially insane. Or to partake of irrationality.
The exact same thing can be said of faith.
And that is the kind of faith I do not accept as genuine.

User avatar
Dimmesdale
Sage
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Vaikuntha Dham
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #55

Post by Dimmesdale »

brunumb wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:15 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:48 pm Wrong. That would not be true faith, but a form of credulity or wishful thinking. Those things do not qualify as authentic faith in my book, or most other (serious) theists' books.....
What's with the "true" faith. Faith is faith. Even if it is not like the religious faith that you have in your alleged true god, it is still faith. If there is no compelling evidence for a belief, then any faith in it is nothing more than credulity or wishful thinking. Faith in the Bible is a prime contender.
If I ask you why monkeys still exist if evolution is true, it is natural that you should think I have a different concept of evolution than you do. So you would correct me, no?

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #56

Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:22 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:21 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:16 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:08 pm
To put it otherwise, to lack faith is to be partially insane. Or to partake of irrationality.
You can put it anyway you like. Now that you've chosen one, all you have to do is provide verifiable evidence that your assertion is true.


Tcg
I have not said all mental health illnesses are due to lack of faith.

I am saying that lack of faith is irrational, and therefore relates with mental health crises, which often involve irrational worldviews.

So no, I don't.
Stating your assertion differently doesn't relieve you of your responsibility to support your claim. You are still making a claim and have failed to provide verifiable evidence to support it.


Tcg
What exactly did I assert?
"I can definitely say there are people there who have little or no hope, because they lack faith."

"Faith is a great light bringer. It reveals truth."

"Mental illness and other such maladies obscure truth, and shackle a person instead of liberating them."

"I am not in any way saying that lack of faith exhausts the nature of mental illness, or, more specifically, unhinged decisions, which are part and parcel of having an incomplete mindset (that can only be completed with the addition of faith)."

"To put it otherwise, to lack faith is to be partially insane. Or to partake of irrationality."

"I am saying that lack of faith is irrational, and therefore relates with mental health crises, which often involve irrational worldviews."

"True faith in my opinion always reveals some truth. Even if that is only a sense of peace and well-being. Those emotions are indicators of reality. They point to inner truths."
That's at least seven assertions. Presentation of support for them? Zero.

Assertions = 7+
Verifiable evidence = 0


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #57

Post by brunumb »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:22 pm True faith in my opinion always reveals some truth. Even if that is only a sense of peace and well-being. Those emotions are indicators of reality. They point to inner truths.
What criteria do you apply to determine if the senses of peace and well-being are indicators of reality? Those emotions can just as easily invoked by fantasies or even medication. What exactly are inner truths anyway?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #58

Post by brunumb »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:23 pm And that is the kind of faith I do not accept as genuine.
What you are prepared to accept as genuine is completely irrelevant. What criteria do you apply and how do you use them to determine exactly what is genuine faith?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
Dimmesdale
Sage
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Vaikuntha Dham
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #59

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:34 pm
"I can definitely say there are people there who have little or no hope, because they lack faith."

"Faith is a great light bringer. It reveals truth."

"Mental illness and other such maladies obscure truth, and shackle a person instead of liberating them."

"I am not in any way saying that lack of faith exhausts the nature of mental illness, or, more specifically, unhinged decisions, which are part and parcel of having an incomplete mindset (that can only be completed with the addition of faith)."

"To put it otherwise, to lack faith is to be partially insane. Or to partake of irrationality."

"I am saying that lack of faith is irrational, and therefore relates with mental health crises, which often involve irrational worldviews."

"True faith in my opinion always reveals some truth. Even if that is only a sense of peace and well-being. Those emotions are indicators of reality. They point to inner truths."
That's at least seven assertions. Presentation of support for them? Zero.

Assertions = 7+
Verifiable evidence = 0


Tcg

I will stick to one of the assertions given time constraints.

Faith reveals truth.

Why? Because it gives us a better understanding ourselves in relation to God and how we need not rely on our own finite image or identity, because we are made in the image of God and loved therefore unconditionally.

So faith can serve and reveal truth in this way. If I am an anorexic, and receive faith, I can understand that I am loved unconditionally by God. That way, whereas before I was on the road to self-harm, and even suicide or some other death, I can be loved and live peacefully in the light of my true identity in God (loved unconditionally). Therefore I do not commit suicide. Because I trust in God that he takes care of me.

Suicide most people would agree is irrational. Faith then serves rationality. It reveals the truth of our actual identity in relation to God. It prevents our self-destruction. It has that effect.

User avatar
Dimmesdale
Sage
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 7:19 pm
Location: Vaikuntha Dham
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: The need for faith

Post #60

Post by Dimmesdale »

brunumb wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:41 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:23 pm And that is the kind of faith I do not accept as genuine.
What you are prepared to accept as genuine is completely irrelevant. What criteria do you apply and how do you use them to determine exactly what is genuine faith?
Then I ask you, why are there monkeys if evolution is true?

Post Reply