The need for faith

[nobspeople]

We're told 'you have to have faith' or 'have faith - it will work out' or any number of claims that speak to the need to have faith.

Outside of salvation (as there's a debate if it's by faith or works or grace or a combination of, that salvation is obtained), why?
Why is faith needed?

Does having faith allow the outcome of a certain event to change? Does God favor those that have faith and protect or grant them a different outcome than those without faith?
Give you supernatural abilities? Does faith allow you to breath underwater on your own?
Does faith pay the bills? Does your utility company take 'faith' as payment?
Does faith make you happy or sad? If you're having a good day, does faith come in and make your day terrible?

Why have faith at all? What's the point?

[brunumb]

I can prove practically why faith is indispensable.

This is because without faith, I would be long dead.

If I did not have faith that God exists, and that he has been guiding me through the tumultuous seas that I have had to cross, I would have despaired and fallen into a death spiral long ago.

I simply would not have had the courage and the motivation to continue going. I would have died, and perhaps taken some people with me.

So I can prove practically that faith is something absolutely crucial.

Proposing that as proof smacks of a fair degree of hubris. As the saying goes, one swallow doesn't make a summer. So many people turn their lives around because deep down that is what they really want to do. Some then go on to attribute the change to some external force like a religious influence, when the reality is that they did it themselves. The impetus really comes from within. Religious communities are all too quick to give credit for such things to their deity of choice even though there is never any sign that the deity had even the slightest bit of involvement. It all adds up to nothing more than a giant security blanket.

[AgnosticBoy]

We're told 'you have to have faith' or 'have faith - it will work out' or any number of claims that speak to the need to have faith.

Outside of salvation (as there's a debate if it's by faith or works or grace or a combination of, that salvation is obtained), why?
Why is faith needed?

Does having faith allow the outcome of a certain event to change? Does God favor those that have faith and protect or grant them a different outcome than those without faith?
Give you supernatural abilities? Does faith allow you to breath underwater on your own?
Does faith pay the bills? Does your utility company take 'faith' as payment?
Does faith make you happy or sad? If you're having a good day, does faith come in and make your day terrible?

Why have faith at all? What's the point?

I can touch on the last two questions. Faith is simply believing or accepting something without proof. I see no difference between faith and "belief". If faith is a bad thing then we are all guilty of it, since even philosophers and scientists rely on faith when it comes their basis for accepting the axioms of logic and other metaphysical assumptions we have about the world. We don't demand proof that our loved ones love us. We gotta have faith that our friends are trustworthy. Faith may even increase or help sustain a positive outlook in the midst of terrible circumstances, like dying from a terminal illness. Factoring this all in, a life without faith would be miserable and impractical.

However, the problem I find with some Christians is that they tend to use faith in areas where logic and science works. This goes back to the classic chasm between faith and reason. Some would rather believe the Creation story on faith, than to accept the scientific discoveries. When it comes to illnesses, some Christians would rather rely on faith than on medicine. So in a epistemic sense, logic and evidence should always trump faith. But outside of an intellectual context, like going about daily life, carrying on relationships, etc. then it's more practical to go by belief or faith.

[1213]

…Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

I know I'm very cynical, but to me, this reads as, "If you're a child of God, you can do whatever you want, and God won't count it as a sin."

Luckily there is that end "Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his Brother". I think that clarifies that not all is right.

[JehovahsWitness]

The result of this "kind of favoring" is revealed later in the same book:

Matthew 13:28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

No I don't believe that is favoring. I believe those verses are speaking about punishment.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

I see no difference between faith and "belief".

Biblically faith is having confidence in realities that we cannot see; belief is simply accepting a reality whether seen or unseen. Not exactly the same thing.

To illustrate A man's wife is accused of killing his children. He pays a private detective to find evidence in her defence. Why? Because he has faith in her. He believes she is innocent based on their years together and how she has acted with their children. He is moved to act accordingly, confident the needed information to liberate her exists. If she is found guilty he will launch an appeal and never stop fighting for her. Another man is in the same situation. He doesnt know what to believe (his children are after all dead). He makes no defense of her and when she is found guilty believes she is.

Faith is a product of Gods spirit and enable the one that has it to act in a way that is pleasing to God. Belief can be a step to faith but not necessarily. One can have belief without faith.

JAMES 2:19 - GOD'S WORD® Translation

You believe that there is one God. That's fine! The demons also believe that, and they tremble with fear

RELATED POSTS

Are faith and mere belief the same things?
viewtopic.php?p=1027839#p1027839

How can the difference between faith and belief be explained?
viewtopic.php?p=1032854#p1032854

Can a person be sure God exists?
viewtopic.php?p=901506#p901506

Did Thomas have reason to doubt?
viewtopic.php?p=904969#p904969

For further reading please go to other posts related to ...

FAITH , BELIEF and ... RELIGIOUS TRUTH

JW

[nobspeople]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #33]

However, the problem I find with some Christians is that they tend to use faith in areas where logic and science works.

Agreed. Additionally, it seems, at times, even when science and or logic has shown something different from their faith, then still cling to their faith. Eventually, society wins over in most instances. But there always seems to be another 'faith hurdle' that needs overcome.

[Dimmesdale]

I can prove practically why faith is indispensable.

This is because without faith, I would be long dead.

If I did not have faith that God exists, and that he has been guiding me through the tumultuous seas that I have had to cross, I would have despaired and fallen into a death spiral long ago.

I simply would not have had the courage and the motivation to continue going. I would have died, and perhaps taken some people with me.

So I can prove practically that faith is something absolutely crucial.

Proposing that as proof smacks of a fair degree of hubris. As the saying goes, one swallow doesn't make a summer. So many people turn their lives around because deep down that is what they really want to do. Some then go on to attribute the change to some external force like a religious influence, when the reality is that they did it themselves. The impetus really comes from within. Religious communities are all too quick to give credit for such things to their deity of choice even though there is never any sign that the deity had even the slightest bit of involvement. It all adds up to nothing more than a giant security blanket.

I can't prove it to you because you haven't seen my life the way I have. You haven't actually been down the dark roads I have. That is not to say you haven't gone down your own dark paths. I don't know you, but speaking personally, I am much more aware of my own life, my own thoughts and feelings and experiences.

And taking all that into account, I have no idea where I would be without faith. Nothing worked for me prior to faith. All I had were quick-fixes, mere band aids that helped me progress in life a little bit, but then it was ten steps back again. Faith for me wrought such a lasting and permanent change that I could not attribute it to my own will-power. Will-power played a role, but it was guided by the hand of Grace and Trust. Without those influences my will was nothing, merely a shell. If you look at born-again Christian testimonies you see that it was PRECISELY NOT the initiative of the people involved to change their lives. It was ALL, or WHOLLY of God. GRACE. Something that too few people understand.

But at any rate, even if faith is a big old security blanket, and nothing else, that doesn't diminish it's NECESSITY (for some people, some where). That was the topic of the OP.

[bluegreenearth]

I can't prove it to you because you haven't seen my life the way I have. You haven't actually been down the dark roads I have. That is not to say you haven't gone down your own dark paths. I don't know you, but speaking personally, I am much more aware of my own life, my own thoughts and feelings and experiences.

And taking all that into account, I have no idea where I would be without faith. Nothing worked for me prior to faith. All I had were quick-fixes, mere band aids that helped me progress in life a little bit, but then it was ten steps back again. Faith for me wrought such a lasting and permanent change that I could not attribute it to my own will-power. Will-power played a role, but it was guided by the hand of Grace and Trust. Without those influences my will was nothing, merely a shell. If you look at born-again Christian testimonies you see that it was PRECISELY NOT the initiative of the people involved to change their lives. It was ALL, or WHOLLY of God. GRACE. Something that too few people understand.

But at any rate, even if faith is a big old security blanket, and nothing else, that doesn't diminish it's NECESSITY (for some people, some where). That was the topic of the OP.

When someone has faith in a different God and subsequently recovers from a difficult life experience, would you accept this person's testimony as valid evidence for belief in that God or are these life-changing events only acceptable when the credit is given to the Christian God?

When many atheists and agnostics fully recover from equivalently difficult life experiences, what is your explanation for their changed lives?

[Dimmesdale]

When someone has faith in a different God and subsequently recovers from a difficult life experience, would you accept this person's testimony as valid evidence for belief in that God or are these life-changing events only acceptable when the credit is given to the Christian God?

When many atheists and agnostics fully recover from equivalently difficult life experiences, what is your explanation for their changed lives?

I would say that all truth is God's truth, and faith in any deity or even confidence in the universe responding to the needs of a person, call it providence or the right "order" of things, -- all this can give benefit to any seeker, even if they are atheistic. This is because God, in my view, is very munificent and generous and responds to all sorts of people's calls. Again, all truth is God's truth. A person may not have the perfected, settled conclusion of what God is, but he can still stumble onto essential truths, because this is after all God's universe.

Of course, if someone has faith in a deity, but uses that for nefarious ends (such as desiring to obtain weapons to massacre people) then I can very well imagine the true God putting stumblingblocks to make that person's faith of no effect. In my view things can be a bit complicated. Just like life is complicated.

[brunumb]

Of course, if someone has faith in a deity, but uses that for nefarious ends (such as desiring to obtain weapons to massacre people) then I can very well imagine the true God putting stumblingblocks to make that person's faith of no effect.

Faith can inspire a person to do anything. It doesn't matter which deity is involved or even if it doesn't involve a deity at all. There is also no sign that the alleged 'true' God gets involved in any way either. The world plods along with things happening and not happening as if no gods of any persuasion exist. We have to use our imaginations whenever we want to see something that we can say is an indication of his presence and involvement.