Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by Purple Knight »

Question for debate: Was Judas Iscariot really that bad?

I don't hate Judas. Nothing about his (admittedly not fleshed-out) character bothers me. I could have been his friend even after the betrayal. That doesn't mean I agree with anyone betraying anyone, and perhaps this is me being messed-up, but nothing Judas did really bothers me to the point I'd cut ties if I knew him.

First I ask myself why he was stealing from Jesus's group. There are basically two unforgivably horrible things you can do in that time where you'd need large sums of money: Drinking, and gambling. I don't think Judas probably did either. Signs point to him being a bit of a fatty so maybe he overindulged in food, but coming from my perspective (I see welfare recipients whip out an EBT card for grocery carts full of what I consider indulgences like $10 tiny little bottles of pomegranate juice and snobby cheeses) that's not really that bad. Reverse two thousand years and maybe the guy just wanted to have meat every day. Maybe the disciples ate mostly grass or often went hungry. Morally right? No. Understandable? To me, definitely. I can't condemn someone for stealing if it's for food.

And what did he do with the blood money he got? He bought a field. He didn't drink or gamble away that money (those would be dealbreakers for me). He bought something that he could invest in that would be useful later. Add some seeds and a couple servants or slaves to a field and you've got a farm. A farm is not a bad thing to want. That's the kind of greed I don't have a problem with. Yes, it was paid for by a life, but lives were routinely bought and sold in those times to pay for whatever you wanted; there was legalised slavery.

No matter how I look at this, I can't really get my mind round to a perspective that paints Judas as a terrible person. And not that this excuses it, but let's be honest, if Jesus was really a wanted man but went about to populated areas to teach, he was going to be caught eventually anyway. From the perspective of Judas, he's probably thinking, it'll happen sooner or later so I might as well have the silver. He might have even been uncomfortable with being a disciple at that point, and wanting it to be over. Or he might have been legitimately scared to be following around a wanted criminal all day, and acting primarily from that. Perhaps he was unsure. If we're unsure, we do tend to default to the law.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:10 pm Question for debate: Was Judas Iscariot really that bad?

I don't hate Judas. Nothing about his (admittedly not fleshed-out) character bothers me. I could have been his friend even after the betrayal. That doesn't mean I agree with anyone betraying anyone, and perhaps this is me being messed-up, but nothing Judas did really bothers me to the point I'd cut ties if I knew him.

First I ask myself why he was stealing from Jesus's group. There are basically two unforgivably horrible things you can do in that time where you'd need large sums of money: Drinking, and gambling. I don't think Judas probably did either. Signs point to him being a bit of a fatty so maybe he overindulged in food, but coming from my perspective (I see welfare recipients whip out an EBT card for grocery carts full of what I consider indulgences like $10 tiny little bottles of pomegranate juice and snobby cheeses) that's not really that bad. Reverse two thousand years and maybe the guy just wanted to have meat every day. Maybe the disciples ate mostly grass or often went hungry. Morally right? No. Understandable? To me, definitely. I can't condemn someone for stealing if it's for food.

And what did he do with the blood money he got? He bought a field. He didn't drink or gamble away that money (those would be dealbreakers for me). He bought something that he could invest in that would be useful later. Add some seeds and a couple servants or slaves to a field and you've got a farm. A farm is not a bad thing to want. That's the kind of greed I don't have a problem with. Yes, it was paid for by a life, but lives were routinely bought and sold in those times to pay for whatever you wanted; there was legalised slavery.

No matter how I look at this, I can't really get my mind round to a perspective that paints Judas as a terrible person. And not that this excuses it, but let's be honest, if Jesus was really a wanted man but went about to populated areas to teach, he was going to be caught eventually anyway. From the perspective of Judas, he's probably thinking, it'll happen sooner or later so I might as well have the silver. He might have even been uncomfortable with being a disciple at that point, and wanting it to be over. Or he might have been legitimately scared to be following around a wanted criminal all day, and acting primarily from that. Perhaps he was unsure. If we're unsure, we do tend to default to the law.
All other things aside, to me, if it wasn't Judas, it was going to be somebody as that seemed to be God's plan: someone had to do what Judas did for that plan to work.
If not, then God is a jerk for using a person to do something that could have been done another way.
Maybe Judas was a jerk in other aspects of life but, for his part in the Jesus story, he got the shaft throughout history as he did what someone needed to do for God's plan.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by 2ndpillar2 »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:10 pm Question for debate: Was Judas Iscariot really that bad?

I don't hate Judas. Nothing about his (admittedly not fleshed-out) character bothers me. I could have been his friend even after the betrayal. That doesn't mean I agree with anyone betraying anyone, and perhaps this is me being messed-up, but nothing Judas did really bothers me to the point I'd cut ties if I knew him.

First I ask myself why he was stealing from Jesus's group. There are basically two unforgivably horrible things you can do in that time where you'd need large sums of money: Drinking, and gambling. I don't think Judas probably did either. Signs point to him being a bit of a fatty so maybe he overindulged in food, but coming from my perspective (I see welfare recipients whip out an EBT card for grocery carts full of what I consider indulgences like $10 tiny little bottles of pomegranate juice and snobby cheeses) that's not really that bad. Reverse two thousand years and maybe the guy just wanted to have meat every day. Maybe the disciples ate mostly grass or often went hungry. Morally right? No. Understandable? To me, definitely. I can't condemn someone for stealing if it's for food.

And what did he do with the blood money he got? He bought a field. He didn't drink or gamble away that money (those would be dealbreakers for me). He bought something that he could invest in that would be useful later. Add some seeds and a couple servants or slaves to a field and you've got a farm. A farm is not a bad thing to want. That's the kind of greed I don't have a problem with. Yes, it was paid for by a life, but lives were routinely bought and sold in those times to pay for whatever you wanted; there was legalised slavery.

No matter how I look at this, I can't really get my mind round to a perspective that paints Judas as a terrible person. And not that this excuses it, but let's be honest, if Jesus was really a wanted man but went about to populated areas to teach, he was going to be caught eventually anyway. From the perspective of Judas, he's probably thinking, it'll happen sooner or later so I might as well have the silver. He might have even been uncomfortable with being a disciple at that point, and wanting it to be over. Or he might have been legitimately scared to be following around a wanted criminal all day, and acting primarily from that. Perhaps he was unsure. If we're unsure, we do tend to default to the law.
If you read Scripture, God knew the elect, as well as Peter, Paul, and Judah from the foundations of the earth. God knew Judah was a coveter, and that Peter was egotistical, and Paul had a Napoleon complex, and that is why they were chose to perform what was established before they were born (Zechariah 11). Judas didn't actually buy any land, the Jews bought the land for a grave yard for "strangers" with the money Judas left.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by Dimmesdale »

I got into a bit of trouble on another message board for claiming that perhaps Judas never existed, due to his character being rather incredible.

Assuming Jesus was divine and performed miracles, why would anyone, in the face of such manifest greatness, want to debase himself and turn to something like 30 pieces of silver? As one of the disciples was Judas not intimately aware of the rewards of Heaven which were preached and that Jesus was God incarnate or, at least, a very powerful supernatural being? If I had that to put my trust and hope in, and if I could daily associate with such a supernaturally loving person, any temporal rewards in my mind would quickly dry up into mist and irrelevance. But maybe Judas was a cold-hearted psychopath, which leads me to my next point.

Why would the disciples question each other about who would betray Jesus if Judas was really such a low character? In my mind it seems he would have as a mere thief stood out in bass relief from the rest of them. This is also, assuming, that Jesus was a solid judge of hearts and picked out his select Few on the basis that they were morally well-developed. But, then again, maybe it was Jesus' intention to pick out common folk as his representatives.

Also, if Judas was really set in his mind to betray Jesus for a few pieces of silver, why hang himself almost immediately due to "remorse?" Practically, I don't see this kind of thing generally happening. Either you are set in your ways, with the objective of enjoying wealth and forget about all, or you are so hesitant that you would be prevented from selling out like that to begin with.

There is something so radically incoherent about this personality that I am inclined to think he is a literary construct rather than a real human.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by Purple Knight »

Dimmesdale wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:03 pmAssuming Jesus was divine and performed miracles, why would anyone, in the face of such manifest greatness, want to debase himself and turn to something like 30 pieces of silver? As one of the disciples was Judas not intimately aware of the rewards of Heaven which were preached and that Jesus was God incarnate or, at least, a very powerful supernatural being?
Key is the last bit. He knew Jesus had magic powers. Does that equal the afterlife is real? Not to me. Remember, this is before the resurrection, and even then, so what? Jesus can come back to life. That doesn't mean I can. In fact, most people can't. You may see a miracle or real magic and just trust whatever the person making the miracle says. But imagine this in real life. What would you think if someone had developed actual superpowers? You might well be terrified of him. He might use his telekinesis to lift a truck off some hapless crushed fellow today, and he might crush you tomorrow. It's not even that he is likely to... it's that he can. That's apt to bother some people.
Dimmesdale wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:03 pmIf I had that to put my trust and hope in, and if I could daily associate with such a supernaturally loving person, any temporal rewards in my mind would quickly dry up into mist and irrelevance. But maybe Judas was a cold-hearted psychopath, which leads me to my next point.

Why would the disciples question each other about who would betray Jesus if Judas was really such a low character? In my mind it seems he would have as a mere thief stood out in bass relief from the rest of them. This is also, assuming, that Jesus was a solid judge of hearts and picked out his select Few on the basis that they were morally well-developed. But, then again, maybe it was Jesus' intention to pick out common folk as his representatives.
I give credit to that part of the story because I see it as giving people the opportunity to reform. I don't think he picked angels and I think it was on purpose that he didn't.
Dimmesdale wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:03 pmAlso, if Judas was really set in his mind to betray Jesus for a few pieces of silver, why hang himself almost immediately due to "remorse?" Practically, I don't see this kind of thing generally happening. Either you are set in your ways, with the objective of enjoying wealth and forget about all, or you are so hesitant that you would be prevented from selling out like that to begin with.
The way I read it, he was always on the fence about it. He may have only done it because he thought God would protect Jesus and he was just bilking the Romans. Or he may have been frightened of Jesus and his powers and wanted Jesus to go away. The most likely, though, to me, is that he never wanted to do it, but he may have been a known disciple and done it to dissociate himself from a wanted criminal. Did people really not know who the twelve disciples were? Were they not complicit with whatever it is Jesus did that made him a wanted criminal?

People often refuse the carrot only to be hit with the stick. Imagine Judas says no at first. But these Romans can see he's on the fence so they switch to the stick. See here, fellow, we know you know this man, this criminal. We know you associate with him. We know you're his personal treasurer. Perhaps if you give us what we want we give you some silver. But perhaps you don't and we arrest you for associating with him.

Greedy people are often fearful people. At the core of this connection is the fear of loss, and of death. Greedy people store up more than they need for a rainy day. They may hoard, even let others make do with nothing, because they are in the heart of their beings, scared, scared that they don't have enough to last. I can definitely imagine such a person taking the silver.
Dimmesdale wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:03 pmThere is something so radically incoherent about this personality that I am inclined to think he is a literary construct rather than a real human.
He might be. He's not a well-developed character and that's why I tend to fill in the blanks to be charitable rather than to assume the worst. If he was a real person, he had real reasons for what he did. No one is a villain in their own eyes. If it was just a story, it's that much more important that the character feels real. Fiction needs to be more credible than truth.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by 1213 »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:10 pm ...And what did he do with the blood money he got? He bought a field. ...
By what the Bible tells, he gave back the money and it was the priests who bought the field for him, because they couldn’t keep the money.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:17 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:10 pm ...And what did he do with the blood money he got? He bought a field. ...
By what the Bible tells, he gave back the money and it was the priests who bought the field for him, because they couldn’t keep the money.
Yup, the Bible says just that:

Matthew 27:3-7
3 Judas saw that they had decided to kill Jesus. He was the one who had handed him over. When he saw what happened, he was very sorry for what he had done. So he took the 30 silver coins back to the priests and the older leaders. 4 Judas said, “I sinned. I handed over to you an innocent man to be killed.”

The Jewish leaders answered, “We don’t care! That’s a problem for you, not us.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the Temple. Then he went out from there and hanged himself.

6 The leading priests picked up the silver coins in the Temple. They said, “Our law does not allow us to keep this money with the Temple money, because this money has paid for a man’s death.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy a field called Potter’s Field. This field would be a place to bury people who died while visiting in Jerusalem.

But the bible also says Judas, not the priests, bought the field.

Acts 1:18
KJ21
Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.

GNT
(With the money that Judas got for his evil act he bought a field, where he fell to his death; he burst open and all his insides spilled out.

ICB
(Judas bought a field with the money he got for his evil act. But Judas fell to his death, his body burst open, and all his intestines poured out.)

NABRE
He [Judas] bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out.

NLT
(Judas had bought a field with the money he received for his treachery. Falling headfirst there, his body split open, spilling out all his intestines.

NTE
(Judas, you see, had bought a field with the money his wickedness had brought him, where he fell headlong and burst open, with all his innards gushing out.

YLT
this one, [Judas] indeed, then, purchased a field out of the reward of unrighteousness, and falling headlong, burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed forth,

WE
Judas received money for the wrong thing he did. He bought a field with the money and fell on his face. His belly burst open and all his insides came out.

etc.

etc.

Now what? Obviously one of the two is a liar, liar pants on fire.




.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:27 pmNow what? Obviously one of the two is a liar, liar pants on fire.
There are a lot of stories of Judas's death and they can be made consistent with enough effort, just like anything else.

I just don't really fault the man if he bought a field. It shows the kind of person he was. He may have been a thief (my theory is that he was a scared thief) but at least he was responsible. In my thinking, more than half the people in today's world fall below that mark. I expect more than half of people will steal if they can, AND they will piss the money away.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:47 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:27 pmNow what? Obviously one of the two is a liar, liar pants on fire.
There are a lot of stories of Judas's death and they can be made consistent with enough effort, just like anything else.
The issue isn't Judas's death, his dying, rather who bought the field.

But in case you are referring to just this issue, who bought the field, then make Matthew 27:3-7

Matthew 27:3-7
3 Judas saw that they had decided to kill Jesus. He was the one who had handed him over. When he saw what happened, he was very sorry for what he had done. So he took the 30 silver coins back to the priests and the older leaders. 4 Judas said, “I sinned. I handed over to you an innocent man to be killed.”

The Jewish leaders answered, “We don’t care! That’s a problem for you, not us.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the Temple. Then he went out from there and hanged himself.

6 The leading priests picked up the silver coins in the Temple. They said, “Our law does not allow us to keep this money with the Temple money, because this money has paid for a man’s death.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy a field called Potter’s Field. This field would be a place to bury people who died while visiting in Jerusalem
.



consistent with Acts 1:18.


Acts 1:18
(Judas bought a field with the money he got for his evil act. But Judas fell to his death, his body burst open, and all his intestines poured out.)


.

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Re: Was Judas Really That Bad?

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Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:27 pm ...But the bible also says Judas, not the priests, bought the field.
Acts 1:18
KJ21
Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.
...
More accurate translation says he obtained it, which is different matter and not in contradiction with the other scripture.

Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out.
Acts 1:18

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