When evaluating whether the claims of Christianity are true or fictional, it's important to take a step back and think about what is typically seen with regard to true beliefs and false beliefs. And, one of the most important characteristics of true beliefs is the fact that they are often independently discovered by multiple people. For instance, pulmonary circulation was discovered/theorized independently in Egypt by Ibn al Nafis and later in Europe by Michael Servetus and later still William Harvey. Calculus was independently discovered by both Isacc Newton and Gottfried Leibniz, evolution was discovered independently by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russell Wallace. There are countless other examples of "multiple discoveries" of facts that can be found here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... iscoveries
The point is that rational people, who objectively search for truth, will often independently discover facts about the universe. So if Christianity and the existence of the Christian god is a fact about the universe (and we could apply this argument to any other religion/god as well), then we would expect that sincere theologians around the world dedicated to the search for God would independently discover Jesus Christ/Yahweh/Holy Spirit, and thus become Christians. As a result, we would not expect it to take 1500 years for Christianity to reach North America, for instance. If Christianity is true, then it is an objective fact and should thus be discoverable by anyone searching hard enough for the truth about the universe. So, why don't we see Christianity emerge in North or South America, Africa, or China, prior to the arrival of Christians into these parts of the world? One would expect that if Christianity were an objectively true fact, it would be independently discovered in multiple regions of the world. But, it wasn't. Quite the opposite. Prior to the invention of technologies that allowed world travel and communication, every culture had its own version of God, and its own religion. While some of these gods and religions had slight similarities, none of the matched exactly. This is strong evidence that all of these gods and religions are manmade constructs that only exist in the imaginations of humans.
So, my question for Christians is, if your religion is a fact, why was it never independently discovered by anyone? Bear in mind that not only is Christianity supposed to be an objective fact, the god is supposed to want people to know and worship him, meaning that it should be even MORE LIKELY for Christianity to be independently discovered if it is a fact than scientific and mathematical facts are to be independently discovered.
Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #171THE TALE OF TWO IFs
I made no claim you did so I am under no obligation to defend any of your strawmen. I asked a question (you can recognise a question by the presence of a question mark "---> ? < ---")
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:49 pmSo I take it your point is...** "If"** God doesn't exist you believe things would appear as they do now?
That said, my question arose because of your claim below.
What you communicated - to anyone with critical thinking skills and a knowledge of how conjunctions work, - is that you believe (correct me if I am wrong) that our present reality appears (looks) .... *as If *... God does not exist.
The only way to remove the **if** which is an intrict part of your statement is to explicity state that you know God doesn't exist; do you?
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #172JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:26 amTHE TALE OF TWO IFs
I made no claim you did so I am under no obligation to defend any of your strawmen. I asked a question (you can recognise a question by the presence of a quesyion mark "---> ? < ---")
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:49 pmSo I take it your point is...** "If"** God doesn't exist you believe things would appear as they do now?
That said, my question arose because of your claim below.
What you communicated - to anyone with critical thinking skills and a knowledge of how conjunctions work, - is that you believe (correct me if I am wrong) that our present reality appears (looks) .... *as If *... God does not exist.
The only way to remove the **if** which is an intrict part of your statement is to explicity state that you know God doesn't exist; do you?
JW
And I am saying there is no evidence for that 'if'.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #173Then perhaps you should consider the following ....
source : https://bigwords101.com/2017/blog/like- ... a%20clause.
And then re-read what you posted ...
If you were to correct the grammar mistake in your statement above, what word would likely appear? (CLUE : two letter word starting with *i * ending with *f* )
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #174JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:02 amThen perhaps you should consider the following ....
source : https://bigwords101.com/2017/blog/like- ... a%20clause.
And then re-read what you posted ...
If you were to correct the grammar mistake in your statement above, what word would likely appear? (CLUE : two letter word starting with *i * ending with *f* )
JW
Non sequituir. Zero evidence has been provided. Bad reasoning has, but zero evidence.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #175It seems that the debate has descended into correcting the grammar of posters. Given that, it would help if you corrected the numerous spelling errors that litter your posts. Definitions of new words such as 'intric' would also be helpful.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:02 amThen perhaps you should consider the following ....
source : https://bigwords101.com/2017/blog/like- ... a%20clause.
And then re-read what you posted ...
If you were to correct the grammar mistake in your statement above, what word would likely appear? (CLUE : two letter word starting with *i * ending with *f* )
JW
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #176Faulty grammar does not a case make. The evidence is there for all fo see, unless you no longer believe in the existence of grammar. If you are going to object to any discourse with supposition, assumption, hypothesis, or theory, you do well firstly to be able to identify what they look like in English and then be ready to be called out every time you, yourself attempt to propose such, with or without strategically placed ellipsis.Goat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:58 amJehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:02 amThen perhaps you should consider the following ....
source : https://bigwords101.com/2017/blog/like- ... a%20clause.
And then re-read what you posted ...
If you were to correct the grammar mistake in your statement above, what word would likely appear? (CLUE : two letter word starting with *i * ending with *f* )
JW
Non sequituir. Zero evidence has been provided. Bad reasoning has, but zero evidence.
Good day to you,
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #177This is hysterical. People trying to correct the grammar of another when their own grammar alarms even me, and I'm one of the worst at grammar!!brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:31 amIt seems that the debate has descended into correcting the grammar of posters. Given that, it would help if you corrected the numerous spelling errors that litter your posts. Definitions of new words such as 'intric' would also be helpful.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:02 amThen perhaps you should consider the following ....
source : https://bigwords101.com/2017/blog/like- ... a%20clause.
And then re-read what you posted ...
If you were to correct the grammar mistake in your statement above, what word would likely appear? (CLUE : two letter word starting with *i * ending with *f* )
JW
I was tired today but this whole thread had divulged into a cluster that made me smile, ironically.
Thanks y'all!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #178To what are those expectations based on? There was a temple in Jerusalem when Jesus was on earth and by what I know, most of Jews were there also. And actually, there were two temples, because in Bible Jesus is the temple of God, or the cornerstone of that temple, and his disciples are also part of that temple of God.Goat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:22 pm In Judaism, the messiah is supposed to be only a man, not the son of god, nor god. There are a number of task that have to be done by him before he can be considered the Messiah, one of which is having a Temple in Jerusalem, with the torah as it's center. Another is to have the vast majority of Jews live in Israel. Neither of those tasks have been accomplished.
I think it is also good to know, in the Bible Jesus is a man and there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus.
This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3
…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5
Christians may have claims that are not well based on the Bible and I don’t know what you mean with “'salvation' as the Christians describe it”, but in Bible salvation means basically that sins are declared forgiven. I don’t think forgiveness of sins means that person is not responsible of his own actions, it just means that God can forgive, if person has done wrongly. Is forgiveness not possible in Judaism?
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #179And here we see the division caused from religions. If you are not with us, it's because you are wicked.JehovahsWitness wrote:The God of the bible is NOT presented as being desirous of providing verifiable evidence for the wicked.
Us vs Them. Christians vs the Wicked.
This is cult behavior, to provide something to unite against as a group. When it comes to most religions, that is everyone that does not belong to the group. All it takes is to consider the outsiders as being evil. Why else would they not share in the beliefs afterall? It's not like they can find the religious claims to be questionable, it must be due to their wickedness. (This thinking is ignorant, hateful, tribal and evil IMO. Many religious people that think they are loving seem to be ok with it).
The world would be better off without religions for this reason. We have enough division without adding in make believe reasons to consider another human wicked.
To any religious person that does not think this way, hats off to you. Policing from within (not allowing hate filled retoric) is needed. What god you believe in or not does not make a person wicked or not wicked. This teaching itself is what is wicked and needs to be rebuked from the inside out.
Let's not judge a person due to their character, let's judge them by what god they picked.
My circle of friends would not consider me wicked, but to some Christians, the fact that I no longer hold to the religious views I once had is enough to label me as such. Ask yourself, which is the true wickedness?
Here's another example:
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
These blanket statements are hateful and not good for humanity IMO. You (generic) need somewhere to go when you die? Fine, but do I really have to be wicked in order for you to hold your belief?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #180It is the very thing which gives Christianity its power over the minds of others...accuse condemn insist people doubt themselves. A tactic which has proved to fill the ranks and humans are so darn fearful they make easy targets... on this board over the years, I have been accused of being 'heretic' 'of the devil' and most recently 'tripping'...and if that is the best they have in the way of argument, they have nothing of value worth any more than the defense tactics used to defend their horde of superstitious fictitious nonsense.Clownboat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:07 pmAnd here we see the division caused from religions. If you are not with us, it's because you are wicked.JehovahsWitness wrote:The God of the bible is NOT presented as being desirous of providing verifiable evidence for the wicked.
Us vs Them. Christians vs the Wicked.
This is cult behavior, to provide something to unite against as a group. When it comes to most religions, that is everyone that does not belong to the group. All it takes is to consider the outsiders as being evil. Why else would they not share in the beliefs afterall? It's not like they can find the religious claims to be questionable, it must be due to their wickedness. (This thinking is ignorant, hateful, tribal and evil IMO. Many religious people that think they are loving seem to be ok with it).
The world would be better off without religions for this reason. We have enough division without adding in make believe reasons to consider another human wicked.
To any religious person that does not think this way, hats off to you. Policing from within (not allowing hate filled retoric) is needed. What god you believe in or not does not make a person wicked or not wicked. This teaching itself is what is wicked and needs to be rebuked from the inside out.
Let's not judge a person due to their character, let's judge them by what god they picked.
My circle of friends would not consider me wicked, but to some Christians, the fact that I no longer hold to the religious views I once had is enough to label me as such. Ask yourself, which is the true wickedness?
Here's another example:
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
These blanket statements are hateful and not good for humanity IMO. You (generic) need somewhere to go when you die? Fine, but do I really have to be wicked in order for you to hold your belief?