When evaluating whether the claims of Christianity are true or fictional, it's important to take a step back and think about what is typically seen with regard to true beliefs and false beliefs. And, one of the most important characteristics of true beliefs is the fact that they are often independently discovered by multiple people. For instance, pulmonary circulation was discovered/theorized independently in Egypt by Ibn al Nafis and later in Europe by Michael Servetus and later still William Harvey. Calculus was independently discovered by both Isacc Newton and Gottfried Leibniz, evolution was discovered independently by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russell Wallace. There are countless other examples of "multiple discoveries" of facts that can be found here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... iscoveries
The point is that rational people, who objectively search for truth, will often independently discover facts about the universe. So if Christianity and the existence of the Christian god is a fact about the universe (and we could apply this argument to any other religion/god as well), then we would expect that sincere theologians around the world dedicated to the search for God would independently discover Jesus Christ/Yahweh/Holy Spirit, and thus become Christians. As a result, we would not expect it to take 1500 years for Christianity to reach North America, for instance. If Christianity is true, then it is an objective fact and should thus be discoverable by anyone searching hard enough for the truth about the universe. So, why don't we see Christianity emerge in North or South America, Africa, or China, prior to the arrival of Christians into these parts of the world? One would expect that if Christianity were an objectively true fact, it would be independently discovered in multiple regions of the world. But, it wasn't. Quite the opposite. Prior to the invention of technologies that allowed world travel and communication, every culture had its own version of God, and its own religion. While some of these gods and religions had slight similarities, none of the matched exactly. This is strong evidence that all of these gods and religions are manmade constructs that only exist in the imaginations of humans.
So, my question for Christians is, if your religion is a fact, why was it never independently discovered by anyone? Bear in mind that not only is Christianity supposed to be an objective fact, the god is supposed to want people to know and worship him, meaning that it should be even MORE LIKELY for Christianity to be independently discovered if it is a fact than scientific and mathematical facts are to be independently discovered.
Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #161There are many stories. However, Jesus was not annointed in the temple to be King. Therefore he was not king. Also, the concept of the Messiah in Judaism is very distinctly different than the messiah in Christianity1213 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:16 pmBy what the Bible tells, Jesus is the king of Jews, Messiah. He was sent first for Jews in specific time. Because Jesus is tied to certain things, I think it is not reasonable to assume he should be found all over the world. He would not be the same Jesus, if he would not be tied to Israel.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:46 pm ...So if Christianity and the existence of the Christian god is a fact about the universe (and we could apply this argument to any other religion/god as well), then we would expect that sincere theologians around the world dedicated to the search for God would independently discover Jesus Christ/Yahweh/Holy Spirit, and thus become Christians. As a result, we would not expect it to take 1500 years for Christianity to reach North America, for instance. If Christianity is true, then it is an objective fact and should thus be discoverable by anyone searching hard enough for the truth about the universe. So, why don't we see Christianity emerge in North or South America, Africa, or China, prior to the arrival of Christians into these parts of the world...
However, apparently some outsiders knew Jesus, because they came to give gifts for Jesus when he was born. Would be nice to know how did they know it. And if they knew, perhaps others knew also, but didn’t like.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #163In Judaism, the messiah is supposed to be only a man, not the son of god, nor god. There are a number of task that have to be done by him before he can be considered the Messiah, one of which is having a Temple in Jerusalem, with the torah as it's center. Another is to have the vast majority of Jews live in Israel. Neither of those tasks have been accomplished. There is no 'salvation' as the Christians describe it, you are responsible for your own actions... so 'savior' for the next world is right out the window in the Jewish conception.
Until such time as the list of expectations have been fulfilled, the messiah has not come.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #164There is no biblical mandate that said a King had to be anointed at the temple to be King, indeed the first three Kings of Israel were appointed before the temple even existed. There is no record Ahijah anointing Jeroboam although the biblical record has his appointment by divine decree. And no record of the majority of kings in the Hebrew bible being anointed at all.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #165Not everything that is law and custom is in the bible.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:22 pmThere is no biblical mandaté that said a King had to be anointed at the temple to be King, indeed the first tree King of Israel were appointed before the temple even existed.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #166So up on what do you base your claim that the Messiah had to be anointed at the temple and that Jesus was not?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #167Of course, the big gate there is "IF". It looks exactly like he/she does not exist.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:40 pmWell if God is omnipotent the only logical answer to that question would be because He doesn't want to.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:16 pm
And if God exists, he is perfectly capable of imparting knowledge of himself onto humans who have never heard of him. So the question is, why doesn't he?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #168So I take it your point is...** "If"** God doesn't exist you believe things would appear as they do now?
Unless, of course you are claiming to KNOW God doesn't exist then it is AGAIN time for a goose and a gander...
You're most welcome,
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #169The question then moves to "Why does The Eternal Creator 'not want to' when It would know that not wanting to means that many would think It looks exactly like It does not exist"?Goat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:11 pmOf course, the big gate there is "IF". It looks exactly like he/she does not exist.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:40 pmWell if God is omnipotent the only logical answer to that question would be because He doesn't want to.Rational Atheist wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:16 pm
And if God exists, he is perfectly capable of imparting knowledge of himself onto humans who have never heard of him. So the question is, why doesn't he?
But another answer might be that It does, and we cannot see It because we do not know what it is we would be looking for, which evidently would be knowledge of It.
The one that I think is the actual case is that It purposefully hid us inside human form, which itself was hidden inside the physical universe, to see if by that, It could still be remembered by us, as we each started to think of ourselves as aspects of It how the memory of that might appear to us...as knowledge of It.
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #170JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:49 pm
So I take it your point is...** "If"** God doesn't exist you believe things would appear as they do now?
Unless, of course you are claiming to KNOW God doesn't exist then it is AGAIN time for a goose and a gander...
You're most welcome,
JW
I'll tell you what. Can you point to the post where I said that? Or, do you want to build a straw man by putting words in my mouth? Until you can show where I specfically said God does not exist, then your 'goose /gander' image that you love so much is not valid.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella