When evaluating whether the claims of Christianity are true or fictional, it's important to take a step back and think about what is typically seen with regard to true beliefs and false beliefs. And, one of the most important characteristics of true beliefs is the fact that they are often independently discovered by multiple people. For instance, pulmonary circulation was discovered/theorized independently in Egypt by Ibn al Nafis and later in Europe by Michael Servetus and later still William Harvey. Calculus was independently discovered by both Isacc Newton and Gottfried Leibniz, evolution was discovered independently by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russell Wallace. There are countless other examples of "multiple discoveries" of facts that can be found here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... iscoveries
The point is that rational people, who objectively search for truth, will often independently discover facts about the universe. So if Christianity and the existence of the Christian god is a fact about the universe (and we could apply this argument to any other religion/god as well), then we would expect that sincere theologians around the world dedicated to the search for God would independently discover Jesus Christ/Yahweh/Holy Spirit, and thus become Christians. As a result, we would not expect it to take 1500 years for Christianity to reach North America, for instance. If Christianity is true, then it is an objective fact and should thus be discoverable by anyone searching hard enough for the truth about the universe. So, why don't we see Christianity emerge in North or South America, Africa, or China, prior to the arrival of Christians into these parts of the world? One would expect that if Christianity were an objectively true fact, it would be independently discovered in multiple regions of the world. But, it wasn't. Quite the opposite. Prior to the invention of technologies that allowed world travel and communication, every culture had its own version of God, and its own religion. While some of these gods and religions had slight similarities, none of the matched exactly. This is strong evidence that all of these gods and religions are manmade constructs that only exist in the imaginations of humans.
So, my question for Christians is, if your religion is a fact, why was it never independently discovered by anyone? Bear in mind that not only is Christianity supposed to be an objective fact, the god is supposed to want people to know and worship him, meaning that it should be even MORE LIKELY for Christianity to be independently discovered if it is a fact than scientific and mathematical facts are to be independently discovered.
Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #151I am asking you a question? I am making no suggestions, claims or assertions. Do you feel able to answer my question without the use of a dictionary? If so, here is my question (corrected pronouns) ...
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:27 am
Are you suggesting I assigned to you a claim you never made?
JW
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #152That doesn't really address the point I was making. There is no definitive way of distinguishing between personal revelation and wishful thinking. Regardless of the claims made in scripture or what God may allegedly be able to do, there is no way of determining if someone has received a personal revelation or if they imagined it or even made it up. When someone makes a claim of having received a personal revelation from God, what criteria can be applied to test the veracity of that claim?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:58 amWho is the "we" ? Scripturally speaking, God doesn't want that to be the case only for the wicked, whom he ignores. The righteous are promised to experience Him through holy* spirit. If God does existe and did this then that person would logically be in no doubt about his existence and identify.brunumb wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:02 amSince we have no definitive way of distinguishing the two, then logically God doesn't want that to be the case according to you. One has to wonder why God would want that to be the case. Why resort to personal revelation if the recipient can just dismiss it as wishful thinking? But then again, only the alleged True Believers resort to dodgy claims of personal revelation as long as there are gullible followers to lap it all up.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:09 am Logically personal revelation by an Almighty God could be distinguished from wishful thinking if he wanted that to be the case.
*corrected typo
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #153Can you prove your claim ? How do you KNOW this? (I'm not asking why you believe this or your opinion on this)but how you can know that there exists no definitive way of distinguishing between personal revelation and wishful thinking?
Logically *if* a human did interact with an omnopotent being, then the latter would have the power to ensure that the distinction could indeed be made by the subject.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #154I gather you are going to hide behind the "you can't prove it isn't so" mantra. If it was possible to distinguish between the two I have no doubt that those in the know would be proclaiming the method loud and clear because it would most definitely be in their best interests to do so. As it is, all we hear is hypotheticals about what God would or could do under the circumstances. In other words, more unsubstantiated claims. But that seems good enough for those deep in the well of religious indoctrination.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:02 amCan you prove your claim ? How do you KNOW this? (I'm not asking why you believe this or your opinion on this)but how you can know that there exists no definitive way of distinguishing between personal revelation and wishful thinking?
Logically *if* a human did interact with an omnopotent being, then the latter would have the power to ensure that the distinction could indeed be made by the subject.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #155Is your statement not a hypotheticals supposition? IF .... (a) then {quote} "I have no doubt" (belief ststement) ....(b)? I asked for PROOF, not opinion.
Yes that is what you just presented. YOU just presented above "hypothetical " about what you imagine/believe/ people would do following an encounter with a God. I did not ASK for your "hypotheticals" I asked for PROOF, do you have any?
Yes, that is exactly what you have just offered an unsubstantiated claim. But that seems good enough for those deep in the well of antigod indoctrination.
And questions?
JW
This is a goose; and this is a gander....
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #156What a long-winded and oblique way of demonstrating that you have no way of distinguishing between personal revelation from God and self-delusion. I did not expect anything else.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #157Proving a negative by deduction? Certainly not. Proof by induction, based on many observations? Yes.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:02 amCan you prove your claim ? How do you KNOW this? (I'm not asking why you believe this or your opinion on this)but how you can know that there exists no definitive way of distinguishing between personal revelation and wishful thinking?
And - logically - the same omnipotent being would have the power to ensure that the distinction could indeed be made by independent observers as well. For example, this being could impart information about the future which could be tested and found to be true - information that the subject couldn’t know or find out themselves.JehovahsWitness wrote:Logically *if* a human did interact with an omnopotent being, then the latter would have the power to ensure that the distinction could indeed be made by the subject.
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #158Exactly! thank you.Diagoras wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:12 amProving a negative by deduction? Certainly not.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:02 amCan you prove your claim ? How do you KNOW this? (I'm not asking why you believe this or your opinion on this)but how you can know that there exists no definitive way of distinguishing between personal revelation and wishful thinking?
So if the statement cannot be proven it remains.. .opinion. (I didn't ask for opinion), a suitable response would therefore have been, I cannot prove what I said, but I believe what I said to be true.
JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #159Yes, IF HE WANTED TO. Note the expressions regarding the God of the bible ....
PROVERBS 15:29 NWT
Jehovah is far away from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous
MATTHEW 13:11-13
[Jesus] said: To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. ... whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it[
DANIEL 12: 11
And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. - New World Translation
The God of the bible is NOT presented as being desirous of providing verifiable evidence for the wicked. If there is an omnipotent God, it is possible he does not want to provide independent observers with verifiable proof of His identity and purpose. Perhaps, as in the case of the biblical YHWH, because he judges the ones asking as wicked/ unclean or simply unworthy. Logically omnipotence and omnisciece would allow such a God, if he existed, to be selective (should he so desire) as who he provides information to and when he does so.
MARK 8 : 11, 12
Here the Pharisees came and started disputing with him, demanding from him a sign from heaven, to put him to the test. So he [Jesus] sighed deeply in his spirit and said: “Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly I say, no sign will be given to this generation.”
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Why Christianity is Likely Ficticious
Post #160Sounds like something straight out of The Giant Omnibus of Christian Loopholes. "You haven't received any communication from God, NOT because he doesn't exist but because he has deemed you to be wicked and denies you that privilege." How convenient. Nothing to prove. Just tell us how God thinks and make up excuses on his behalf that no one can scrutinise. If we are going with 'perhaps', then the best 'perhaps' that explains everything is that God doesn't really exist. It all makes far more sense when we start from that proposition.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:11 am Perhaps, as in the case of the biblical YHWH, because he judges the ones asking as wicked/ unclean or simply unworthy. Logically omnipotence and omnisciece would allow such a God, if he existed, to be selective (should he so desire) as who he provides information to and when he does so.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.