If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by Dimmesdale »

I have thought about what would happen if the Christian God's existence were obvious, that this were plain to everyone in society.

In my mind, I think anarchy or totalitarianism would result.

This is because all the "sinners" who truly "hate God" in their hearts... would realize they were going to hell, but would still be stubborn enough not to repent. This brings up the issue of free will as well, but let's assume they would still have some "sliver" of free will even if God revealed Himself perfectly.

I think we would see a dramatic rise in mass shootings, and suicides would increase, among other things. The really bad people in society would be more brazen in terms of their wickedness. In other words, their true selves would emerge, because they themselves would think "I'm not going to change even if this is the truth; I hate God and I'm going to make the most of it." Knowing that they would go to hell would only spur them on to even worse acts of heinousness. Of course, some of them would be cowards and plea for mercy, but a lot nevertheless wouldn't.

There would be effectively hell on earth for all people. Starting from the power-hungry elites, going down.

That is one scenario. On the other hand, perhaps the better part of humanity would band together. Perhaps real unity would be evoked and the bad people would be supplanted.

But humans have believed in the supernatural for millennia, so why assume that kind of unity would instantly materialize? Perhaps some of the doctrinal minutiae would still be stumblingblocks to perfect unity. There would also be anti-theists who simply despise God and think he's the real tyrant even if he does exist.

All in all, it makes more sense to me that God should remain hidden, even on the Christian view.

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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by Dimmesdale »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:25 pm So why doesn't God make his existence obvious? I think that the Greek idea of the logos answers the question. The logos is God's connection to the world without his entering it. A perfectly holy God has an aversion to a sinful world in the same way that we have aversions to sewers. So God must send prophets into the world to reveal his intentions so that he need not enter the world himself as himself. Of course, God did enter the world as the man Jesus Christ, the logos or "the word." (See John 1.)
That reminds me of the idea of the Gnostic Demiurge who separately creates the material world, the actual God being far removed from the stain of materiality. The actual God doesn't "get his hands dirty" as it were, with this lower grade of existence.

I believe something similar. But I know sin and matter are not the same. The idea of being far removed from this mode of existence is something I can definitely understand, however. It is my belief that God's being is in many ways antithetical to the reality we find ourselves in. Kind of like oil and water. An incompatible situation.

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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Dimmesdale wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:33 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:31 pm Steven Weinberg, an atheist, has said that he does not like God which he admits is hard to reconcile with his not believing in God. But you don't need to be an atheist to hate God. Martin Luther said he hated God. So some people do apparently hate God.
Why is that something "hard to reconcile?" I hate Morgoth from the Silmarillion. Is my hating Morgoth inconsistent with him not existing?
Some Christian apologists have mocked atheists, in particular the "new atheists," for maintaining that there is no God, and they hate him! The obvious implication is that atheists are not being logically consistent hating something they presumably think doesn't exist. Weinberg is evidently aware of this problem and openly admits that he's not being completely rational.

But I do agree that it is possible and in fact common to hate fictional characters. If a movie is done well, for example, I find myself hating the "bad guy."
Dimmesdale wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:43 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:25 pm So why doesn't God make his existence obvious? I think that the Greek idea of the logos answers the question. The logos is God's connection to the world without his entering it. A perfectly holy God has an aversion to a sinful world in the same way that we have aversions to sewers. So God must send prophets into the world to reveal his intentions so that he need not enter the world himself as himself. Of course, God did enter the world as the man Jesus Christ, the logos or "the word." (See John 1.)
That reminds me of the idea of the Gnostic Demiurge who separately creates the material world, the actual God being far removed from the stain of materiality. The actual God doesn't "get his hands dirty" as it were, with this lower grade of existence.
I think that beliefs like those influenced the early Christians. In fact, some Christians and their doctrines inspired by the Greeks and the Gnostics may have already existed as a religious group before Jesus joined the emerging sect. This scenario would explain the parallels between the doctrines attributed to Christ and the logos and demiurge.
I believe something similar. But I know sin and matter are not the same. The idea of being far removed from this mode of existence is something I can definitely understand, however. It is my belief that God's being is in many ways antithetical to the reality we find ourselves in. Kind of like oil and water. An incompatible situation.
Some atheists I've debated harshly judge doctrines like the logos as excuses for the dearth of evidence for God. But it does make sense from a theological view that God wouldn't go around "getting his hands dirty" in a fallen world.

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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:57 pm But I do agree that it is possible and in fact common to hate fictional characters. If a movie is done well, for example, I find myself hating the "bad guy."
Precisely. When atheists are critical of the Christian God or even express hatred for him, it is a reaction to the character as portrayed in the Bible. It should not in any way suggest that there is any belief that the character is real.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:42 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:57 pm But I do agree that it is possible and in fact common to hate fictional characters. If a movie is done well, for example, I find myself hating the "bad guy."
Precisely. When atheists are critical of the Christian God or even express hatred for him, it is a reaction to the character as portrayed in the Bible. It should not in any way suggest that there is any belief that the character is real.
I'm not so sure because I think there are doubters on both sides of the atheist vs Christian debate. Some Christians are troubled by doubting their faith, so why might atheists be so different always completely sure that God doesn't exist? Emotional reactions can betray uncertainty about God's existence. It seems to me that it's much easier to hate what presumably exists than what does not.

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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:08 pm It seems to me that it's much easier to hate what presumably exists than what does not.

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Don Boys is obviously a hate-filled person. Terrible book which to me is designed to promote hatred of those who are not like-minded Christians. It sheds an unfavorable light on your position.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:23 pmDon Boys is obviously a hate-filled person.


If Boys is hate-filled, then the obvious question is why. Maybe he has good reasons to feel that way.
Terrible book which to me is designed to promote hatred of those who are not like-minded Christians.
I haven't read it--yet.
It sheds an unfavorable light on your position.
When I am done reading it, then I will judge for myself.

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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

Post #17

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:43 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:23 pm
Terrible book which to me is designed to promote hatred of those who are not like-minded Christians.
I haven't read it--yet.
The extent then of research into this book which you have presented as evidence of something or other is to judge a book by it's cover. Here's my counter to your book cover:

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It also is evidence of something or other.



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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:43 pm If Boys is hate-filled, then the obvious question is why. Maybe he has good reasons to feel that way.
Either way, he doesn't come across as a True Christian. His rant is also focused on the Christian God in particular and not gods in general. Apparently it does not sit well with him that the days when atheists had to keep their mouths shut and move to the back of the bus are over.
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: If the Existence of the Christian God were Obvious

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:03 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:43 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:23 pm
Terrible book which to me is designed to promote hatred of those who are not like-minded Christians.
I haven't read it--yet.
The extent then of research into this book which you have presented as evidence of something or other is to judge a book by it's cover.
Tcg, we must read what's been posted. On post 16 I said:
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:43 pmWhen I am done reading it, then I will judge for myself.
Since I am deferring judgment until I've read the book, I am not judging it by its cover.

I've often wondered if atheists read and judge the Bible they way they read and judge my posts.

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