What's up with the cross?

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nobspeople
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What's up with the cross?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Is there any significance to the shape of the cross?
Was it simply absorbed from other cultures in the area - two pieces of wood put together to hold a person?
Does it have some sort of mythical meaning?
Or did someone see an object this shape and use it to inspire the cross we see today?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #2

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:21 pm Is there any significance to the shape of the cross?
Was it simply absorbed from other cultures in the area - two pieces of wood put together to hold a person?
Does it have some sort of mythical meaning?
Or did someone see an object this shape and use it to inspire the cross we see today?
The "cross" is an old pagan symbol. Paganism is the worship of the sons of god, the fallen angels, the watchers who took wives and produced the men of renown, whose spirits became demons per the book of Enoch.

As the "Christian" symbolism, and worship of the cross symbol in form of wood, silver, gold, etc. (Rev 9:20) that would be mostly attributed to Constantine the Great at his battle of Milvian bridge, whereas he has a vision from his god Sol Invictus whereas he saw a symbol of a cross and was told to conquer the world under this symbol. Constantine was the "beast with two horns like a lamb", who was to deceive those who dwell on the earth (Rev 13). The two horns like a lamb would be Peter and Paul, both leaders of Constantine's Roman church, for whom he built cross like church, basilicas, for each.

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #3

Post by bjs1 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:21 pm Is there any significance to the shape of the cross?
Was it simply absorbed from other cultures in the area - two pieces of wood put together to hold a person?
Does it have some sort of mythical meaning?
Or did someone see an object this shape and use it to inspire the cross we see today?
The “t” shaped cross was an effective way to hold people off the ground while they were tortured to death by hanging from their outstretched arms until their lungs collapsed and they drowned in their own fluids.

Obviously the simplicity of “two intersecting lines” can be found in other designs. For instance, the Egyptian ankh is sort of cross-like.

However, there is no record of any mystical or symbolic meaning attached to the “t” shaped cross before the Romans started using it to execute people.

Prior to Christianity, the only recorded meaning behind the “t” shaped cross was that it symbolized a horrible death at the hands of an oppressive invading empire.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #4

Post by Dimmesdale »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:21 pm Is there any significance to the shape of the cross?
Was it simply absorbed from other cultures in the area - two pieces of wood put together to hold a person?
Does it have some sort of mythical meaning?
Or did someone see an object this shape and use it to inspire the cross we see today?
It's interesting how polyvalent this symbol can be. I don't see it as merely serendipitous/fortuitious, regarding Jesus death.

For example, the cross can be symbolic of paradox and contradiction. God becoming man. God dying and rising. Love being about pain and sacrifice just as much as about joy and well-being. Mercy and justice coming together and being reconciled.

Isn't it odd that all these associations should coalesce around a seemingly random torture device?

You might say I'm just superimposing all these concepts later. But I can't think of a better symbol to harness all these associations. It looks to me like it was ordained by fate. I'm not a Christian but I think one can wring out some esoteric meaning here.

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #5

Post by bjs1 »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:29 pm The "cross" is an old pagan symbol.
Do you mean this in the general sense that every symbol that includes intersecting lines is a cross? So the ankh would be a cross?

Or do you mean that the specific lowercase “t” shape was an old pagan symbol?

If the latter, could you give a few examples of pre-Christian pagans who used the lowercase “t” shape?
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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #6

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:05 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:29 pm The "cross" is an old pagan symbol.
Do you mean this in the general sense that every symbol that includes intersecting lines is a cross? So the ankh would be a cross?

Or do you mean that the specific lowercase “t” shape was an old pagan symbol?

If the latter, could you give a few examples of pre-Christian pagans who used the lowercase “t” shape?
As for pagan uses:
"Further proof of its pagan origin is the recorded evidence of the Vestal Virgins (Koster) of pagan Rome having the cross hanging on a necklace, and the Egyptians doing it too, as early as the 15th century B.C.! The Buddhists, and numerous other sects of India, also used the sign of the cross as a mark on their followers' heads. "

As for modern uses, the ankh is linked with the black clothed goths with respect to vampires. It is associated with the black clothed BLM, in that they apparently would like to burn down churches, which often have a cross, which apparently may not stave off vampires or their associates.

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #7

Post by bjs1 »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:22 pm
bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:05 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:29 pm The "cross" is an old pagan symbol.
Do you mean this in the general sense that every symbol that includes intersecting lines is a cross? So the ankh would be a cross?

Or do you mean that the specific lowercase “t” shape was an old pagan symbol?

If the latter, could you give a few examples of pre-Christian pagans who used the lowercase “t” shape?
As for pagan uses:
"Further proof of its pagan origin is the recorded evidence of the Vestal Virgins (Koster) of pagan Rome having the cross hanging on a necklace, and the Egyptians doing it too, as early as the 15th century B.C.! The Buddhists, and numerous other sects of India, also used the sign of the cross as a mark on their followers' heads. "

As for modern uses, the ankh is linked with the black clothed goths with respect to vampires. It is associated with the black clothed BLM, in that they apparently would like to burn down churches, which often have a cross, which apparently may not stave off vampires or their associates.
Okay, but you did not directly address my question. You listed a few example of symbols that, when drawn, include an intersecting line.

The Egyptians had the ankh. That is not a “t” shaped cross but it is probably as close as we are going to get before the Romans started using that shape to execute people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

The Buddhist had the double Vajra. That does include an intersecting line, but I don’t think that anyone who has ever seen one would confuse it for the “t” cross that the Romans used.
https://www.buddhagroove.com/double-vajra/

So may I rightly say that you are using “cross” in the sense of “any symbol that includes two intersecting lines”? If that is your meaning then I agree that the cross is an exceedingly common symbol found the world over.

However saying that the cross which Christianity has taken as its primary symbol is of pagan origin is, at the very best, a misleading half-truth.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #8

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:45 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:22 pm
bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:05 am
2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:29 pm The "cross" is an old pagan symbol.
Do you mean this in the general sense that every symbol that includes intersecting lines is a cross? So the ankh would be a cross?

Or do you mean that the specific lowercase “t” shape was an old pagan symbol?

If the latter, could you give a few examples of pre-Christian pagans who used the lowercase “t” shape?
As for pagan uses:
"Further proof of its pagan origin is the recorded evidence of the Vestal Virgins (Koster) of pagan Rome having the cross hanging on a necklace, and the Egyptians doing it too, as early as the 15th century B.C.! The Buddhists, and numerous other sects of India, also used the sign of the cross as a mark on their followers' heads. "

As for modern uses, the ankh is linked with the black clothed goths with respect to vampires. It is associated with the black clothed BLM, in that they apparently would like to burn down churches, which often have a cross, which apparently may not stave off vampires or their associates.
Okay, but you did not directly address my question. You listed a few example of symbols that, when drawn, include an intersecting line.

The Egyptians had the ankh. That is not a “t” shaped cross but it is probably as close as we are going to get before the Romans started using that shape to execute people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

The Buddhist had the double Vajra. That does include an intersecting line, but I don’t think that anyone who has ever seen one would confuse it for the “t” cross that the Romans used.
https://www.buddhagroove.com/double-vajra/

So may I rightly say that you are using “cross” in the sense of “any symbol that includes two intersecting lines”? If that is your meaning then I agree that the cross is an exceedingly common symbol found the world over.

However saying that the cross which Christianity has taken as its primary symbol is of pagan origin is, at the very best, a misleading half-truth.
The primary source of the cross symbol used in "Christianity" was from the vision of the pagan emperor of Rome, Constantine the Great, with respect to his vision concerning his god, Sol Invictus, at the battle of Milvian bridge. In the vision, Constantine was told to conquer under this sign. Constantine was not only a pagan, but he was the Pontifex Maximus of the pagan church. The conquistadors followed this tradition when invading South America. The Christian soldiers fighting for Jerusalem also followed this regimen. The mark of the beast/Constantine, will be as a sign on your forehead and on your hand. (Revelation 13).
The cross of Tammuz, the 2nd member of the Babylonian pagan trinity was worn on the head dresses of the Babylonians.
The cross of the vestal virgins was worn around their necks.
In the fulfillment of Daniel 7:24-25, Constantine went on to intend to "make alterations in time and in law", as he changed the day of rest from the 7th day, to the day of his sun god, Sol Invictus, which is Sunday, in the year 321 AD. He also went on to try and alter the 1st commandment in that there is not one god, but three, but one, which is symbolized in the no legged sign of the cross exhibited by the RCC followers. The fact that the 2nd commandment stated that you shall not make graven images was kind of overthrown by Constantine's son, who supported the use of graven images, and the cross was graven in the form of wood, gold, silver, etc. While Constantine was a secondary to the beast of Revelation 13:4, he was still credited for being able to deceive "those who dwell on the earth" (Rev 13:14).
The Babylonians had their Trinity, and Christianity, as a daughter of Babylon, has their Trinity, which is symbolized in the form of a cross. Those with this mark of the beast will drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10).

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #9

Post by bjs1 »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 pm The primary source of the cross symbol used in "Christianity" was from the vision of the pagan emperor of Rome, Constantine the Great, with respect to his vision concerning his god, Sol Invictus, at the battle of Milvian bridge. In the vision, Constantine was told to conquer under this sign. Constantine was not only a pagan, but he was the Pontifex Maximus of the pagan church. The conquistadors followed this tradition when invading South America. The Christian soldiers fighting for Jerusalem also followed this regimen. The mark of the beast/Constantine, will be as a sign on your forehead and on your hand. (Revelation 13).
The “t” shaped cross in Christianity pre-dates Constantine by a long time. The non-canonical Epistle of Barnabas, written in the late first century or early second century, says, “And then, since grace was to come by a cross, of which t is the shape. . .”

Since the “t” cross was an established symbol of Christianity more than a century before Constantine’s birth, it seems undeniable that Constantine had nothing to do with it.

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 pm The cross of Tammuz, the 2nd member of the Babylonian pagan trinity was worn on the head dresses of the Babylonians.
The cross of the vestal virgins was worn around their necks.
Tammuz was part of a family of gods, which was common in polytheism, but not a trinity. And, once again, this was not at “t” cross. As I have already said, if you define a cross as any symbol that includes two intersecting lines than I agree that this is an exceedingly common symbol found the world over.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Tammuz ... tamian-god
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 pm In the fulfillment of Daniel 7:24-25, Constantine went on to intend to "make alterations in time and in law", as he changed the day of rest from the 7th day, to the day of his sun god, Sol Invictus, which is Sunday, in the year 321 AD. He also went on to try and alter the 1st commandment in that there is not one god, but three, but one, which is symbolized in the no legged sign of the cross exhibited by the RCC followers. The fact that the 2nd commandment stated that you shall not make graven images was kind of overthrown by Constantine's son, who supported the use of graven images, and the cross was graven in the form of wood, gold, silver, etc. While Constantine was a secondary to the beast of Revelation 13:4, he was still credited for being able to deceive "those who dwell on the earth" (Rev 13:14).
The Babylonians had their Trinity, and Christianity, as a daughter of Babylon, has their Trinity, which is symbolized in the form of a cross. Those with this mark of the beast will drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10).
You are free to your interpretation of the visions. I, personally, find these to be far-fetched interpretations focused more on reaching a desired conclusion than understanding the meaning of the visions themselves.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: What's up with the cross?

Post #10

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:19 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 pm The primary source of the cross symbol used in "Christianity" was from the vision of the pagan emperor of Rome, Constantine the Great, with respect to his vision concerning his god, Sol Invictus, at the battle of Milvian bridge. In the vision, Constantine was told to conquer under this sign. Constantine was not only a pagan, but he was the Pontifex Maximus of the pagan church. The conquistadors followed this tradition when invading South America. The Christian soldiers fighting for Jerusalem also followed this regimen. The mark of the beast/Constantine, will be as a sign on your forehead and on your hand. (Revelation 13).
The “t” shaped cross in Christianity pre-dates Constantine by a long time. The non-canonical Epistle of Barnabas, written in the late first century or early second century, says, “And then, since grace was to come by a cross, of which t is the shape. . .”

Since the “t” cross was an established symbol of Christianity more than a century before Constantine’s birth, it seems undeniable that Constantine had nothing to do with it.

2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 pm The cross of Tammuz, the 2nd member of the Babylonian pagan trinity was worn on the head dresses of the Babylonians.
The cross of the vestal virgins was worn around their necks.
Tammuz was part of a family of gods, which was common in polytheism, but not a trinity. And, once again, this was not at “t” cross. As I have already said, if you define a cross as any symbol that includes two intersecting lines than I agree that this is an exceedingly common symbol found the world over.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Tammuz ... tamian-god
2ndpillar2 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:12 pm In the fulfillment of Daniel 7:24-25, Constantine went on to intend to "make alterations in time and in law", as he changed the day of rest from the 7th day, to the day of his sun god, Sol Invictus, which is Sunday, in the year 321 AD. He also went on to try and alter the 1st commandment in that there is not one god, but three, but one, which is symbolized in the no legged sign of the cross exhibited by the RCC followers. The fact that the 2nd commandment stated that you shall not make graven images was kind of overthrown by Constantine's son, who supported the use of graven images, and the cross was graven in the form of wood, gold, silver, etc. While Constantine was a secondary to the beast of Revelation 13:4, he was still credited for being able to deceive "those who dwell on the earth" (Rev 13:14).
The Babylonians had their Trinity, and Christianity, as a daughter of Babylon, has their Trinity, which is symbolized in the form of a cross. Those with this mark of the beast will drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10).
You are free to your interpretation of the visions. I, personally, find these to be far-fetched interpretations focused more on reaching a desired conclusion than understanding the meaning of the visions themselves.
Since "Christianity", a daughter of Babylon, which was built on the "two horns like a lamb", Peter and Paul, of the "beast"/Constantine, their inclusion, by some follower of Paul, regarding pagan symbols, would not be surprising prior to Constantine. As for the false gospel of the cross/grace, stemming from the false prophet (Mt 7:13-23) Paul, the wide path to "destruction", that would be a sign of the "beast", for which according to Isaiah 28:17-18, this "covenant with death shall be canceled". Probably canceled when the angels come to gather the tares to be thrown into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:38-42), which occurs prior to the son of man coming to gather the wheat (Mt 13:30 & Mt 24-29-31). The only escape is to repent, be baptized in the Spirit, and produce good fruit/works in keeping with that repentance (Mt 3). According to Joel 2:30-32, they will also have to call on the name of the LORD, which they apparently have failed to recognize at this time.

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