Forgiveness

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Purple Knight
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Forgiveness

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for debate: Is the sort of forgiveness preached by Jesus practical?
Sub-question: Does forgive, as Jesus preached it, mean no consequences for the offender?

Some apologists will say, yes, Jesus said forgive, but he didn't say forget. So essentially you're still entitled to hold a grudge. You can do everything a grudge-holder would do as long as you don't resent the person in your heart.

Background:
I come from an alcoholic family, and the strong desire for them to drink has led most of them to steal quite a lot of my stuff. Half of them are thieves and boozehounds and the other half are enablers and apologists for them. Most of them are believers in the frankly cultish version of sort-of-Christian monotheism preached in Alcoholics Anonymous.
This is how I came to decide that even though most Christians are good people, I didn't like Christianity. One of my unrepentant alcoholic family members stole my most prized possession and sold it, then refused to do anything whatsoever to make it up to me. My family took me to a Christian minister who said I just had to forgive it with no strings attached and at that point I moved away and cut ties.
Jehovah's Witnesses earned major points with me because they proscribe disfellowship for such awful behaviour. Someone who is an unrepentant thief and drunk is kicked out of the community. I don't consider them as bad as other Christians because even though they will probably say you should forgive the thief, you just disfellowship them anyway, in practice they are willing to give consequences to bad behaviour, which is my whole problem with Christians precisely because of the whole forgiveness motif.

To me, forgiveness means you do not get to give consequences. I hate to argue definitions but in this instance this is the definition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive
forgive

Definition of forgive

transitive verb
1 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon forgive one's enemies
2a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see requital sense 1) for forgive an insult
b : to grant relief from payment of forgive a debt

excuse, condone, pardon, forgive mean to exact neither punishment nor redress. excuse may refer to specific acts especially in social or conventional situations or the person responsible for these. excuse an interruption excused them for interrupting Often the term implies extenuating circumstances. injustice excuses strong responses condone implies that one overlooks without censure behavior (such as dishonesty or violence) that involves a serious breach of a moral, ethical, or legal code, and the term may refer to the behavior or to the agent responsible for it. a society that condones alcohol but not narcotics pardon implies that one remits a penalty due for an admitted or established offense. pardon a criminal forgive implies that one gives up all claim to requital and to resentment or vengeful feelings. could not forgive their rudeness
Emphasised relevant. I don't like to argue by the dictionary because it's fundamentally dishonest. Words are often imprecise instruments and there's not always a particular word that's perfect for what someone wants to say. This is where definitional argument usually comes in: Someone picked the wrong word, or even described what they were referencing the best they could with a similar word when no precise one was available, so their point is invalid. Furthermore I don't think our dictionary is a good reference for what someone who lived 2000 years ago and spoke a different language actually meant by what he said. The only reason I use the dictionary in this case is because this is the definition that has been used against me. This is what the word means not because the dictionary says so, but because the people who use the word actually use it so. I only add the dictionary reference to preclude anyone else from getting definitional and saying that I'm mistaken about the meaning of forgive, when I'm not.

Some Christians seem to agree that forgive means no consequences, while some don't. The Bible seems to support that it means no consequences when Jesus told the tale of the unforgiving servant and it details that forgive a debt means do not collect that debt. I'm not extending that beyond the logical implication when I expect that this also means that forgive a thief means do not expect repayment or punishment.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #31

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:51 amI think you know me well enough to know changing the verb in order to shift the focus to a strawman will never work with me. The question is not regarding "casting" (prosecuting /punishing) it is about reporting.
I'm not changing it; that is the verb used in The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant. Does it mean that the master literally takes the slave and throws him into prison? I would think not. I would think it would have to do with reporting the debt. The debtor prisons probably had no problem picking up the individual in question since they basically gained a slave they could exploit and treat horribly. Many people died in debtors prison.

In the context of The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant, cast into prison clearly doesn't mean literally throw him into a prison. It must mean, then, that the master would cause him to go into prison... I would bloody think by reporting the debt.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:10 pm

I'm not changing it; that is the verb used in The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant. Does it mean that the master literally takes the slave and throws {snip: irrelevant (wrong verb)
I know it is the verb in the parable but it is NOT the verb I am discussing. Nor is it the verb you claimed was unbiblical. The question is not regarding "casting" /"throwing" judging, prosecuting punishing or playing basketball.... it is about reporting.


In case you have forgotten, here is the question again ...

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:04 pmAre you suggesting that reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical? If so do you have a reference?


I have already addressed the question as to whether the parable condems REPORTING here
viewtopic.php?p=1034503#p1034503


.
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Re: Forgiveness

Post #33

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:14 pmI have already addressed the question as to whether the parable condems REPORTING here
viewtopic.php?p=1034503#p1034503
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:06 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:41 pmThere's nothing that says reporting a crime is unbiblical except The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant which details that a debtor would be thrown into prison but the right thing was not to report it.
Emphase MINE

The point of the story is not to condemn reporting crime to secular authorities. That much is clear since justice is rendered due to the fact that a report was made. This would not have been the case if the moral of the story was that Christians should never report crimes (compare Lev 5:1)
So, I imagine (but I admit I didn't get into this) that the problem with this would be that the master is not a secular authority; he is an allegory for God. That other slaves had to tell the mater so the tale doesn't end with the unforgiving servant being rewarded for his hypocrisy is an unfortunate result of the fact that this allegory for God can't reasonably have omniscience, and none of this ever happened, even in Biblical canon - it's a parable. And the point of the parable is to forgive debts, as in, don't collect them, and don't punish people for being in debt to you.

However, you make a good point and the next time I get into it with one of these forgivypants new age Christians, I'll certainly bring that up. If those other slaves can snitch, then why can't I? What I can't understand is how everyone on the internet is this reasonable but it seems everyone in real life is stark raving mad. Not one Christian on here is using the total forgiveness interpretation, but every Christian I have had the misfortune to be saddled with in my real life has said that. They're the type of people who would witness a rape and urge the victim to forgive her attacker as she was in the process of being infected with AIDS. That's enlightenment to these people and when faced with the light of post records on a forum, they seem to crawl off to the far side of nowhere or under the fridge with the cockroaches so I can look crazy for claiming they even exist.

I just wish you could debate with them, but not one of them seems to be here.

Just to show you I'm not the only one who is being told this, here is an article (that agrees with you by the way) but that arises out of the many Christian objections to reporting a crime.

http://teaminfocus.com.au/should-i-purs ... gainst-me/

But again, the person on the internet, where everyone can read his words, is perfectly reasonable, and the cockroach who has told this poor person not to report a crime because it's unChristian, remains hidden.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #34

Post by nobspeople »

1213 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:56 am
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:36 pm ...The only sacrifice he seems to have made was to become a man from a deity, but still have his abilities. That doesn't seem much like a sacrifice, really....
It is interesting that you don’t seem to understand what I said and how differently you see what Jesus did. What I think was his sacrifice is that he served people and basically gave his time for us. But, obviously, if you think it is nothing, then it is nothing for you. I think what Jesus did was great thing and I don’t think any human would have done the same, in the same situation.
Of course no human would leave their deity form and do it because no humans are true deities, which was the point I was making. It is interesting you didn't seem to understand that point
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #35

Post by nobspeople »

brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:19 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:51 pm ...Someone deserving far more admiration than Jesus. ...
My point was not to make you to admire Jesus. The point was, Jesus didn’t live for himself, he lived for us, he spent his life on earth for our benefit and that is what it means to sacrifice life for other people.
And, as I said before, big deal. What is so special about that? Countless ordinary people have done as much and done it better. Given the way things panned out after he allegedly left, he did a pretty poor job anyway.
Speaking to the bolded sentence, maybe this was the plan? Maybe it was all show with little to no substance?
Of maybe it was nothing more than the writings of hopeful people with an agenda?
If 'the gays' can have an 'agenda', surely people of this time could as well.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #36

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:02 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:19 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:51 pm ...Someone deserving far more admiration than Jesus. ...
My point was not to make you to admire Jesus. The point was, Jesus didn’t live for himself, he lived for us, he spent his life on earth for our benefit and that is what it means to sacrifice life for other people.
And, as I said before, big deal. What is so special about that? Countless ordinary people have done as much and done it better. Given the way things panned out after he allegedly left, he did a pretty poor job anyway.
Speaking to the bolded sentence, maybe this was the plan? Maybe it was all show with little to no substance?
...
I think it depends on what was the goal. By what Jesus tells, the goal was to preach the good message. I think he was successful, because even we can hear it after about 2000 years. Not many have done that.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #37

Post by nobspeople »

1213 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:49 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:02 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:19 pm
1213 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:51 pm ...Someone deserving far more admiration than Jesus. ...
My point was not to make you to admire Jesus. The point was, Jesus didn’t live for himself, he lived for us, he spent his life on earth for our benefit and that is what it means to sacrifice life for other people.
And, as I said before, big deal. What is so special about that? Countless ordinary people have done as much and done it better. Given the way things panned out after he allegedly left, he did a pretty poor job anyway.
Speaking to the bolded sentence, maybe this was the plan? Maybe it was all show with little to no substance?
...
I think it depends on what was the goal. By what Jesus tells, the goal was to preach the good message. I think he was successful, because even we can hear it after about 2000 years. Not many have done that.
A lot of people preach the message - some preach other messages. So the whole preaching part isn't all that impressive honestly.
By that metric, it was 'meh' at best.
Was that the real goal, as you seem unsure by the beginning of your reponse.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:05 am...I imagine (but I admit I didn't get into this) that the problem with this would be that the master is not a secular authority; he is an allegory for God.


Problem for whom? You are the one that offered the parable in support of your point, namely that reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical (see). How you go about attempting to justify that is your own "problem", as long as you do so without attempting to shift the goal posts changing the verb.

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:04 pmAre you suggesting that reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical? If so do you have a reference?
I'm not suggesting that; I was told that by a Christian minister.
My response is HERE. If you have nothing to add in relation to my post, then my work here is done.
viewtopic.php?p=1034503#p1034503




Have a good one,



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #39

Post by Marco. »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:03 am Question for debate: Is the sort of forgiveness preached by Jesus practical?
Sub-question: Does forgive, as Jesus preached it, mean no consequences for the offender?


Jesus famously makes provocative statements, as did Oscar Wilde, with no back up. He should first have addressed his advice to his father, who is notoriously unforgiving.There have been remakable examples of people forgiving their oppressors and of people valiantly suffering death for the sake of others. They go undeified. Jesus has no monopoly on goodness. Much of biblical lore involves a system of pretence: "Father forgive them," Jesus apparently said, but the words would be uttered theatrically rather than as a real prayer to an almighty entity who sees, hears and understand everything without being reminded.
As with much of his advice, Christ's suggestions about forgiving are impractical; but when reported, it all sounds good.

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