Forgiveness

Argue for and against Christianity

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Purple Knight
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Forgiveness

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for debate: Is the sort of forgiveness preached by Jesus practical?
Sub-question: Does forgive, as Jesus preached it, mean no consequences for the offender?

Some apologists will say, yes, Jesus said forgive, but he didn't say forget. So essentially you're still entitled to hold a grudge. You can do everything a grudge-holder would do as long as you don't resent the person in your heart.

Background:
I come from an alcoholic family, and the strong desire for them to drink has led most of them to steal quite a lot of my stuff. Half of them are thieves and boozehounds and the other half are enablers and apologists for them. Most of them are believers in the frankly cultish version of sort-of-Christian monotheism preached in Alcoholics Anonymous.
This is how I came to decide that even though most Christians are good people, I didn't like Christianity. One of my unrepentant alcoholic family members stole my most prized possession and sold it, then refused to do anything whatsoever to make it up to me. My family took me to a Christian minister who said I just had to forgive it with no strings attached and at that point I moved away and cut ties.
Jehovah's Witnesses earned major points with me because they proscribe disfellowship for such awful behaviour. Someone who is an unrepentant thief and drunk is kicked out of the community. I don't consider them as bad as other Christians because even though they will probably say you should forgive the thief, you just disfellowship them anyway, in practice they are willing to give consequences to bad behaviour, which is my whole problem with Christians precisely because of the whole forgiveness motif.

To me, forgiveness means you do not get to give consequences. I hate to argue definitions but in this instance this is the definition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive
forgive

Definition of forgive

transitive verb
1 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon forgive one's enemies
2a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see requital sense 1) for forgive an insult
b : to grant relief from payment of forgive a debt

excuse, condone, pardon, forgive mean to exact neither punishment nor redress. excuse may refer to specific acts especially in social or conventional situations or the person responsible for these. excuse an interruption excused them for interrupting Often the term implies extenuating circumstances. injustice excuses strong responses condone implies that one overlooks without censure behavior (such as dishonesty or violence) that involves a serious breach of a moral, ethical, or legal code, and the term may refer to the behavior or to the agent responsible for it. a society that condones alcohol but not narcotics pardon implies that one remits a penalty due for an admitted or established offense. pardon a criminal forgive implies that one gives up all claim to requital and to resentment or vengeful feelings. could not forgive their rudeness
Emphasised relevant. I don't like to argue by the dictionary because it's fundamentally dishonest. Words are often imprecise instruments and there's not always a particular word that's perfect for what someone wants to say. This is where definitional argument usually comes in: Someone picked the wrong word, or even described what they were referencing the best they could with a similar word when no precise one was available, so their point is invalid. Furthermore I don't think our dictionary is a good reference for what someone who lived 2000 years ago and spoke a different language actually meant by what he said. The only reason I use the dictionary in this case is because this is the definition that has been used against me. This is what the word means not because the dictionary says so, but because the people who use the word actually use it so. I only add the dictionary reference to preclude anyone else from getting definitional and saying that I'm mistaken about the meaning of forgive, when I'm not.

Some Christians seem to agree that forgive means no consequences, while some don't. The Bible seems to support that it means no consequences when Jesus told the tale of the unforgiving servant and it details that forgive a debt means do not collect that debt. I'm not extending that beyond the logical implication when I expect that this also means that forgive a thief means do not expect repayment or punishment.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #21

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:20 am If you would spend for example 20 years serving others and then get something better after that, is the 20 years of serving nothing?

By what the Bible tells, Jesus could have had all the kingdoms of earth and have easy life. Instead of that, he used his life to serve others, by healing and teaching the good message.
Big deal. He allegedly healed a few people, cured some blindness and did some preaching. There are countless ordinary people who have done far more than Jesus ever did and with far less in the way of magical resources. Look up Fred Hollows. Someone deserving far more admiration than Jesus. And what would Jesus want with all the kingdoms of the earth anyway. He was supposed to get himself killed and whisked off to heaven, a place we are led to belief is far more appealing than anywhere on earth. Let's face it, the whole scenario with Jesus is just one big charade for the punters who are desperate for death not to be the end.
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Re: Forgiveness

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:41 pm There's nothing that says reporting a crime is unbiblical except The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant ....
The parable of the unforgiving servant does not condemn reporting a crime, in fact no crime is mentioned in the story at all. Perhaps in your meticulous examination of scripture you missed that point.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Forgiveness

Post #23

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:57 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:41 pm There's nothing that says reporting a crime is unbiblical except The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant ....
The parable of the unforgiving servant does not condemn reporting a crime, in fact no crime is mentioned in the story at all. Perhaps in your meticulous examination of scripture you missed that point.
It details something for which the punishment was prison. It details that you should not cast people into prison.

A lot of people here (especially on the atheist side, sadly) are what I call douche sceptics. (If this is a rules violation I apologise but I can't think of a more polite way to describe this.) Yes, you can nitpick anything. Yes, you can claim there's not enough evidence and always demand more. But if you're looking honestly, for a reasonable degree of evidence, you will find that The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant is at least some evidence that you should forgive, as opposed to putting someone in prison. You're looking for the word crime. It's not there.

But remember, in the context of this discussion, I am not the authority. The minister is the authority. The burden of proof is on me. He's also being a douche sceptic and demanding biblical permission to report or punish or exact repayment for a crime in the attempt to get someone punished for it. I couldn't find any, except in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is replete with examples of God telling people to punish or exact repayment from other people. But apparently, those don't count.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:41 pmThe Tale of the Unforgiving Servant .... details not to cast people into prison.


I think you know me well enough to know changing the verb in order to shift the focus to a strawman will never work with me. The question is not regarding "casting" (prosecuting /punishing) it is about reporting. In case you have forgotten, here is the question again ...
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:04 pmAre you suggesting that reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical? If so do you have a reference?
I'm not suggesting that; I was told that by a Christian minister.



JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DOES JESUS ILLUSTRATION OF THE UNFORGIVING SLAVE CONDEMN REPORTING CRIMES?



Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:41 pmThere's nothing that says reporting a crime is unbiblical except The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant which details that a debtor would be thrown into prison but the right thing was not to report it.
Emphase MINE




The point of the story is not to condemn reporting crime to secular authorities. That much is clear since justice is rendered due to the fact that a report was made. This would not have been the case if the moral of the story was that Christians should never report crimes (compare Lev 5:1)


MATTHEW 18:31

When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they became greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all the things that had happened


JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #26

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:51 pm ...Someone deserving far more admiration than Jesus. ...
My point was not to make you to admire Jesus. The point was, Jesus didn’t live for himself, he lived for us, he spent his life on earth for our benefit and that is what it means to sacrifice life for other people.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #27

Post by nobspeople »

1213 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:51 pm ...Someone deserving far more admiration than Jesus. ...
My point was not to make you to admire Jesus. The point was, Jesus didn’t live for himself, he lived for us, he spent his life on earth for our benefit and that is what it means to sacrifice life for other people.
The only sacrifice he seems to have made was to become a man from a deity, but still have his abilities. That doesn't seem much like a sacrifice, really.
It would be if you could become an ape, but still have all your human abilities. Sure you may smell bad and have bad teeth for a while. But, unlike Jesus, you can't just end it and will yourself back to paradise.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #28

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:12 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:51 pm ...Someone deserving far more admiration than Jesus. ...
My point was not to make you to admire Jesus. The point was, Jesus didn’t live for himself, he lived for us, he spent his life on earth for our benefit and that is what it means to sacrifice life for other people.
And, as I said before, big deal. What is so special about that? Countless ordinary people have done as much and done it better. Given the way things panned out after he allegedly left, he did a pretty poor job anyway.
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Re: Forgiveness

Post #29

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:36 pm ...The only sacrifice he seems to have made was to become a man from a deity, but still have his abilities. That doesn't seem much like a sacrifice, really....
It is interesting that you don’t seem to understand what I said and how differently you see what Jesus did. What I think was his sacrifice is that he served people and basically gave his time for us. But, obviously, if you think it is nothing, then it is nothing for you. I think what Jesus did was great thing and I don’t think any human would have done the same, in the same situation.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #30

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:19 pm ...Countless ordinary people have done as much and done it better. Given the way things panned out after he allegedly left, he did a pretty poor job anyway.
Interesting opinion you have. I disagree, but, I would like to know, who has done similar job and done it better?

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