Forgiveness

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Purple Knight
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Forgiveness

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

Question for debate: Is the sort of forgiveness preached by Jesus practical?
Sub-question: Does forgive, as Jesus preached it, mean no consequences for the offender?

Some apologists will say, yes, Jesus said forgive, but he didn't say forget. So essentially you're still entitled to hold a grudge. You can do everything a grudge-holder would do as long as you don't resent the person in your heart.

Background:
I come from an alcoholic family, and the strong desire for them to drink has led most of them to steal quite a lot of my stuff. Half of them are thieves and boozehounds and the other half are enablers and apologists for them. Most of them are believers in the frankly cultish version of sort-of-Christian monotheism preached in Alcoholics Anonymous.
This is how I came to decide that even though most Christians are good people, I didn't like Christianity. One of my unrepentant alcoholic family members stole my most prized possession and sold it, then refused to do anything whatsoever to make it up to me. My family took me to a Christian minister who said I just had to forgive it with no strings attached and at that point I moved away and cut ties.
Jehovah's Witnesses earned major points with me because they proscribe disfellowship for such awful behaviour. Someone who is an unrepentant thief and drunk is kicked out of the community. I don't consider them as bad as other Christians because even though they will probably say you should forgive the thief, you just disfellowship them anyway, in practice they are willing to give consequences to bad behaviour, which is my whole problem with Christians precisely because of the whole forgiveness motif.

To me, forgiveness means you do not get to give consequences. I hate to argue definitions but in this instance this is the definition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive
forgive

Definition of forgive

transitive verb
1 : to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon forgive one's enemies
2a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital (see requital sense 1) for forgive an insult
b : to grant relief from payment of forgive a debt

excuse, condone, pardon, forgive mean to exact neither punishment nor redress. excuse may refer to specific acts especially in social or conventional situations or the person responsible for these. excuse an interruption excused them for interrupting Often the term implies extenuating circumstances. injustice excuses strong responses condone implies that one overlooks without censure behavior (such as dishonesty or violence) that involves a serious breach of a moral, ethical, or legal code, and the term may refer to the behavior or to the agent responsible for it. a society that condones alcohol but not narcotics pardon implies that one remits a penalty due for an admitted or established offense. pardon a criminal forgive implies that one gives up all claim to requital and to resentment or vengeful feelings. could not forgive their rudeness
Emphasised relevant. I don't like to argue by the dictionary because it's fundamentally dishonest. Words are often imprecise instruments and there's not always a particular word that's perfect for what someone wants to say. This is where definitional argument usually comes in: Someone picked the wrong word, or even described what they were referencing the best they could with a similar word when no precise one was available, so their point is invalid. Furthermore I don't think our dictionary is a good reference for what someone who lived 2000 years ago and spoke a different language actually meant by what he said. The only reason I use the dictionary in this case is because this is the definition that has been used against me. This is what the word means not because the dictionary says so, but because the people who use the word actually use it so. I only add the dictionary reference to preclude anyone else from getting definitional and saying that I'm mistaken about the meaning of forgive, when I'm not.

Some Christians seem to agree that forgive means no consequences, while some don't. The Bible seems to support that it means no consequences when Jesus told the tale of the unforgiving servant and it details that forgive a debt means do not collect that debt. I'm not extending that beyond the logical implication when I expect that this also means that forgive a thief means do not expect repayment or punishment.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #11

Post by Purple Knight »

Overcomer wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:40 amSome people think that, if we forgive people, we are letting them off the hook. We aren't. God will deal with them in his way and his way is the right and best way.
You seem to be disagreeing with the other Christians here and affirming that forgive means no consequences (at least, from us). I only say this because you seem to be the only one in line with the Bible here, saying that it is God's place to give consequences, and not ours. In other words, I would not be practicing forgiveness if I, for example, report a thief to the police.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:59 pm ... you seem to be the only one in line with the Bible here, saying that it is God's place to give consequences, and not ours. In other words, I would not be practicing forgiveness if I, for example, report a thief to the police.

Are you suggesting that reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical? If so do you have a reference?
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Re: Forgiveness

Post #13

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:04 pmAre you suggesting that reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical? If so do you have a reference?
I'm not suggesting that; I was told that by a Christian minister. Specifically, I was told that if I had someone thrown in jail rather than forgave their debt to me, I would be the same as the Unforgiving Servant. I would never have conceived of such a thing as thieves should go free and unpunished without having been told so.

To be fair, that tale is specifically about a debt, and thievery incurs a very similar debt to borrowing. I had no defence. Do you? It was clear to me that Jesus really wanted people to just let debts go, mainly because that was what was explained to me.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 pm ...I was told that by a Christian minister.
If you and said that in the first place I would not even have posed the question. Your statement "you seem to be the only one in line with the Bible here" gave the impression, that you were sharing your own knowlege of the contents of scripture. I wouldn't have gotten that impression if you had said " you seem to be the only one in line with what I was told is in the Bible here... "

I have no issue with those that acknowledge they are simply sharing what they have been told is in scripture without verifying for themselves.
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 pm I had no defence.
Could that be because you did not have a solid knowlege of the actual contents of the bible? ( question, not statement)
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 pm Do you?
See below
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:34 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DOES THE BIBLE SAY IT IS A SIN TO COMPLY WITH SECULAR LAW?
ROMANS 13:1-7

Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad.

5 There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.+ 6 That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax;+ to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear;+ to the one who calls for honor, such honor.
1 PETER 2: 13-20 NWT

For the Lord’s sake subject yourselves to every human creation, whether to a king as being superior ... 18 Let servants be in subjection to their masters with all due fear,+ not only to the good and reasonable but also to those hard to please. 19 For it is agreeable when someone endures hardship and suffers unjustly because of conscience toward God.+ 20 For what merit is there if you are beaten for sinning and you endure it?





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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #16

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:40 pm ...He didn't give his life with the certainty of coming back a few hours later good as new. Jesus did nothing for us, ...
If you would spend for example 20 years serving others and then get something better after that, is the 20 years of serving nothing?

By what the Bible tells, Jesus could have had all the kingdoms of earth and have easy life. Instead of that, he used his life to serve others, by healing and teaching the good message.

Again, the devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory. He said to him, "I will give you all of these things, if you will fall down and worship me."
Matt. 4:8-9

The job of Jesus and the reason Jesus came was this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

I think that is a great thing and I am thankful for him for that. If you think that is nothing, you are free to think so, but I would like to know, why do you think it is nothing?

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

I think the the objection is that if one is rewarded for sacrifices made, those the action cannot rightly be viewed as a sacrifice at all. I disagree because SACRIFICE is not subject to future events.








To learn more please go to other posts related to

SIN, THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #18

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:00 amI have no issue with those that acknowledge they are simply sharing what they have been told is in scripture without verifying for themselves.
I did verify it for myself. I poured over everything trying to find anything whatsoever I could use as a defence, and it all fell flat. Believe it or not I cited the very passage you quote about following the law. Yes, the minister said, the thief is subject to the law and ought to follow it, but that doesn't mean you can use the law as an instrument to punish another human being; it is for God to punish and it is for you, a human being, to forgive.

There is plenty, plenty in the Bible about what people should and shouldn't do, and thievery is vetoed by a commandment, for crying out loud. According to the minister, that's between the person stealing and God. But hey, they just say they're sorry before they die and move on up to Heaven, and if I feel one iota of bitterness that my only friend was stolen and sold for beer money, or if I don't want someone else's suffering to pay for my sins, I burn.
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 pmCould that be because you did not have a solid knowledge of the actual contents of the bible? ( question, not statement)
Since I read it over and over to try to find a defence, any at all, that is doubtful. I found loads of stuff that directly contradicted the minister, but only in the Old Testament, which, according to the minister, was abrogated by Jesus.

What he wanted was something that proved it was okay for me to punish the thief, or use the law to do so, not just something that proved the thief shouldn't steal.

The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant literally says I shouldn't care and shouldn't punish no matter what anyone else owes me; I should demand nothing and forgo all punishment. The parable did explain there was debtors prison and that the debtor should not be cast into it even though they owed the debt and that was the proscribed punishment. The minister didn't buy that the debt incurred by thievery was relevantly different than one incurred by borrowing. I tried to explain that it's a huge difference as to how people can live by simply choosing not to give the known deadbeat any more money, but not so with a thief given free reign to steal. It made no impact. It's a debt, he said, and The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant is crystal clear: Do not demand repayment, do not seek punishment.
Last edited by Purple Knight on Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forgiveness

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:35 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:04 pmAre you suggesting that reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical? If so do you have a reference?
I'm not suggesting that; I was told that by a Christian minister.
Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:26 pm. Believe it or not I cited the very passage you quote about following the law. Yes, the minister said, the thief is subject to the law and ought to follow it, but that doesn't mean you can use the law as an instrument to punish another human being; it is for God to punish and it is for you, a human being, to forgive.
Well, if that was his response, your minister didn't seems to have said you what you believe he did. You just confirmed that you were told that {reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical} yet your memory of the discussion does not deal with this point at all. In case you have missed it, you confirmed to me you were told about " reporting"; but your minister responded with a different verb "to punish". Not the same thing.


Maybe if you had been more astute to the "slight of hand" some people use to shift a discussion from one point to another by changing the verb and thus shifting the focus of the discussion, you would have been better equipped to have made a more suitable response.




JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:53 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Forgiveness

Post #20

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:34 pmIn your meticulous examination of the source text did you come across the scriptures I quote above? What did you make of them?
I did. And I tried to use them as a defence. The answer was that the thief ought not to steal because yes, they are subject to the law, but that's between them and God. I don't get to punish them or use the law to do so; it is only for God to punish.

This was a conversation that took place over several weeks. I had to move away because I couldn't live like that.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:34 pmYou just confirmed that you were told that {reporting crimes to secular authorities is unbiblical} yet your memory of the discussion does not deal with this point.
There's nothing that says reporting a crime is unbiblical except The Tale of the Unforgiving Servant which details that a debtor would be thrown into prison but the right thing was not to report it. It details not to cast people into prison. Even if they did the thing that would land them in prison.

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