What would it take for you?

[nobspeople]

Recently started watching a Netflix documentary about Mormonism and how (at least up to this point) the church seemed to be going to any and all means to stop documentation from getting out that, they think, would totally uproot their belief system (though I haven't finished it yet).

So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?


For those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?

[tokutter]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]

what exactly is the data provided by the *bible* for 3 day dead corpses coming back to life and flying into the sky.......
oh that's right.............you got that *special pleading card*............no need for data.......... assert.....assert.........assert.....assert......assert....i love watching you people play tennis without the net.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Our universe could simply be an ever existing form of energy that is constantly changing state.

Impossible.

No one knows that the current universe came from nothing either so claiming that is simply making something up and stating it to be true.

1. God created it
2. It came from nothing
3. It existed forever

2 and 3 are logically absurd, so #1 fits the bill. I know that is something you don't like to hear, but hey.

Whatever claim you can come up with about your god, can also apply to the energy that makes up the universe. Any attempt to make one special is by definition special pleading. It's dead in the water as far as arguments go.

Wrong again. I guess being wrong doesn't bother you.

If there were only one bus, it might be tempting. The problem is there is a veritable traffic jam of buses of various different colors, drivers, and passengers. What you are asking is akin to jumping on a random city bus without bothering to check the route map or the schedule.

I read the route map for the bus I was on and discovered it was actually not as initially advertised. I looked closely and found countess issues with it that could only come from people who know nothing about efficient bus systems, but seemed fine pasting stuff together that made no sense. Even when they tried to copy bits of it and expand it to suit their own agendas. It just ended up being a confusing collage. An interesting art project, but hardly the work of an inspired leader that should be followed.

I'm currently at the info booth asking about all the busses and it seems no one behind the counter can provide a coherent answer. Until I get one, I'm not jumping on a random bus.

LOL.

[Diagoras]

1. God created it
2. It came from nothing
3. It existed forever

2 and 3 are logically absurd, so #1 fits the bill. I know that is something you don't like to hear, but hey.

Couple of questions, then:

1. If it is logically absurd for the universe to have existed forever, then how does one rationalise an eternal god?

2. If God created the universe, who or what created God? God can’t come from nothing (#2 is ‘logically absurd’), nor can God have existed forever (#3 as above), so we’re left with either something else creating a god (and begging the question, what created that?), or a god creating itself. That’s either absurd, or else by the same laws of logic allows for the universe ‘creating itself’, which is pretty much restating #2. Unless you can show otherwise, your argument commits the fallacy of special pleading.

It behoves any fair debater to examine their own argument for the very flaws that they ascribe to those they oppose.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Couple of questions, then:

1. If it is logically absurd for the universe to have existed forever, then how does one rationalise an eternal god?

That is a great question, actually.

The difference between an eternal God existing forever and a eternal universe existing forever is; the universe would had to have existed eternally in time (which is logically absurd), but God didn't.

Now of course, a deeper explanation is needed at this point, but to make a long story short, that is the difference; eternally existing in TIME is a logically absurd concept...that even God couldn't accomplish.

2. If God created the universe, who or what created God?

No one is claiming that God was created.

God can’t come from nothing (#2 is ‘logically absurd’)

I agree.

, nor can God have existed forever (#3 as above)

Yes, God could have existed forever, just not forever in time.

, so we’re left with either something else creating a god (and begging the question, what created that?), or a god creating itself. That’s either absurd, or else by the same laws of logic allows for the universe ‘creating itself’, which is pretty much restating #2. Unless you can show otherwise, your argument commits the fallacy of special pleading.

It behoves any fair debater to examine their own argument for the very flaws that they ascribe to those they oppose.

Ehhh. You thought you were on to something, didn't you?

[Diagoras]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #45]

Yes, God could have existed forever, just not forever in time.

So, logically, if this god has not existed forever in time (your emphasis), then it had a beginning (my emphasis) in time, didn’t it?

Dipping in and out of time and space as required to avoid self-contradiction and absurdities seems like an awfully impressive (and convenient) feature of gods. Perhaps you have some sound logical reasoning to explain what a ‘forever’ is outside of time. Or better still, some actual evidence to back up your ‘could haves’.

You’ll have to make good on that promise of a ‘deeper understanding’ if you want agreement on this point.

Since we apparently agree that God wasn’t created, and that God can’t come from nothing, then we’re two-thirds of the way to full agreement already, just after I’d asked a couple of simple questions. I’d call that progress, so I await your response.

Yeah, I’d definitely say I was ‘on to something’.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]

what exactly is the data provided by the *bible* for 3 day dead corpses coming back to life and flying into the sky.......
oh that's right.............you got that *special pleading card*............no need for data.......... assert.....assert.........assert.....assert......assert....i love watching you people play tennis without the net.

If your use of ellipse is any indication, you seem upset. Neither I nor Mr. Morris made and reference to data in the bible. Perhaps you may benefit from a careful reread.

Science? Data?

In my opinion, good (accurate/proven) science always agrees with scripture.








JW

If however you could see your way to expressing yourself in complete sentences I would be interested in why you mentioned "special pleading" in your response to my post.

Respect,

JW





RELATED POSTS

Does God respect his own moral codes ? [special pleading]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p840589

[benchwarmer]

Our universe could simply be an ever existing form of energy that is constantly changing state.

Impossible.

Evidence for this bald assertion? Not much of a debate going on when the reply is no better than "neener neener, you're wrong".

No one knows that the current universe came from nothing either so claiming that is simply making something up and stating it to be true.

1. God created it
2. It came from nothing
3. It existed forever

2 and 3 are logically absurd, so #1 fits the bill. I know that is something you don't like to hear, but hey.

1 inserts an imagined entity which must use special pleading to solve the problem.
2 has not been postulated by me
3 has not be postulated by me

Oh, you missed what I actually said:

4 the current universe MAY have arisen from an ever existing energy. Note the two bolded words are not the same thing.

Attempting to say your favorite god concept can always exist but something else can't is special pleading 101. I'm fine taking the ever existing energy off the table if you take your ever existing god off the table. We are then left with the 'correct' answer at this point which is "we don't know".

Whatever claim you can come up with about your god, can also apply to the energy that makes up the universe. Any attempt to make one special is by definition special pleading. It's dead in the water as far as arguments go.

Wrong again. I guess being wrong doesn't bother you.

Wow, what a strong rebuttal that advances the debate. Care to at least attempt to explain how it's wrong? I'm not saying it isn't given that I used the word 'could' in my hypothesis. Simply screaming 'wrong' is not exactly useful.

If there were only one bus, it might be tempting. The problem is there is a veritable traffic jam of buses of various different colors, drivers, and passengers. What you are asking is akin to jumping on a random city bus without bothering to check the route map or the schedule.

I read the route map for the bus I was on and discovered it was actually not as initially advertised. I looked closely and found countess issues with it that could only come from people who know nothing about efficient bus systems, but seemed fine pasting stuff together that made no sense. Even when they tried to copy bits of it and expand it to suit their own agendas. It just ended up being a confusing collage. An interesting art project, but hardly the work of an inspired leader that should be followed.

I'm currently at the info booth asking about all the busses and it seems no one behind the counter can provide a coherent answer. Until I get one, I'm not jumping on a random bus.

LOL.

LOL because it perfectly frames the current religious landscape? LOL because it's embarrassingly true? Kind of hard to know what you are on about here.

I'm gonna chalk up this entire reply of yours as you were in a rush and would rather do something else than bicker back and forth with me

Maybe try again?

[We_Are_VENOM]

So, logically, if this god has not existed forever in time (your emphasis), then it had a beginning (my emphasis) in time, didn’t it?

No, it didn't. You don't think I'd be so naïve to argue against a concept which also applies to my own beliefs, do you?

I mean, you and I don't know each other well, but cmon...give me some kind of benefit of doubt.

Dipping in and out of time and space as required to avoid self-contradiction and absurdities seems like an awfully impressive (and convenient) feature of gods.

Straw man. I never said nor implied anything about a "dipping in and out of time". Not only didn't I say it, but I don't even think it is possible, therefore, I wouldn't DARE say it.

Perhaps you have some sound logical reasoning to explain what a ‘forever’ is outside of time. Or better still, some actual evidence to back up your ‘could haves’.

Discussion for another thread/day.

You’ll have to make good on that promise of a ‘deeper understanding’ if you want agreement on this point.

I agree. And I will soon deliver.

Since we apparently agree that God wasn’t created, and that God can’t come from nothing, then we’re two-thirds of the way to full agreement already, just after I’d asked a couple of simple questions. I’d call that progress, so I await your response.

Yeah, I’d definitely say I was ‘on to something’.

Okey dokey

[We_Are_VENOM]

Evidence for this bald assertion? Not much of a debate going on when the reply is no better than "neener neener, you're wrong".

Hey, I understand the fact that one conversation leads to another...but that is an entirely different topic, one of which I plan to make a thread on.

I will bring all of the pain/smoke there. All you have to do is show up.

1 inserts an imagined entity which must use special pleading to solve the problem.
2 has not been postulated by me
3 has not be postulated by me

Oh, you missed what I actually said:

4 the current universe MAY have arisen from an ever existing energy. Note the two bolded words are not the same thing.

Wrong again. You claim #3 (it existed forever) hasn't been postulated by you, yet you postulate "the current universe may have arisen from an ever existing energy.

I am trying to figure out how an "ever existing energy" isn't the same as "it (the universe) existed forever" (#3).

Either way, something has existed forever...so #3 has been postulated by you after all.

Attempting to say your favorite god concept can always exist but something else can't is special pleading 101.

It isn't special pleading if I have actual REASONS why X can do it and Y can't. At that point, it is what it is.

I'm fine taking the ever existing energy off the table if you take your ever existing god off the table.

Can't do that, because one of those options are necessarily true. Both can't be true, but one must be true.

We are then left with the 'correct' answer at this point which is "we don't know".

Not at all. You see, there is the "we know" crowd...and the "we don't want to know" crowd.

It is clear which side you are on.

Wow, what a strong rebuttal that advances the debate. Care to at least attempt to explain how it's wrong? I'm not saying it isn't given that I used the word 'could' in my hypothesis. Simply screaming 'wrong' is not exactly useful.

As if that is the only thing I said.

LOL because it perfectly frames the current religious landscape? LOL because it's embarrassingly true? Kind of hard to know what you are on about here.

I'm gonna chalk up this entire reply of yours as you were in a rush and would rather do something else than bicker back and forth with me

Maybe try again?

I have a unique sense of humor.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #49]

No it didn’t.

Did you watch that ‘argument sketch’ that I suggested?

“An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.”

“No it isn’t.”

Feels like I just wandered into it.

Discussion for another thread/day.

This was in response to requesting a ‘deeper understanding’ of your statement beginning, “The difference between an eternal God existing forever and a eternal universe existing forever...”

I think you’re just hand-waving at this point. An extraordinary claim like this demands extraordinary evidence (or solid logical argument) to be worth anything more than just words. I’m going to just say, “put up or shut up” because I don’t believe you have anything to back up your claim.

I agree. And I will soon deliver.

I’ll wait.