What would it take for you?

Argue for and against Christianity

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nobspeople
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What would it take for you?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Recently started watching a Netflix documentary about Mormonism and how (at least up to this point) the church seemed to be going to any and all means to stop documentation from getting out that, they think, would totally uproot their belief system (though I haven't finished it yet).

So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?


For those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Tcg
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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #91

Post by Tcg »

The Barbarian wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:45 pm
Tcg wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:22 pm
The Barbarian wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:16 pm If the Apostles were perpetrating a fraud concerning His resurrection, I doubt very much that they'd be willing to die for it.
If the apostles, or other devotees of Christianity, perpetrated a fraud concerning the resurrection, it wouldn't be hard to perpetrate a further fraud concerning the deaths of the apostles.
Tcg
And that, if confirmed, would shake my confidence in Christianity.
What verifiable evidence do you rely on to convince you that this isn't the case?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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brunumb
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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #92

Post by brunumb »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:50 am The claim is that the Bible was divinely inspired, not that it wasn't written by people who have many of the same linguistic limitations as we do, which is why it's tough to be fair and expect more of them than we do of NASA.
What exactly do you consider divine inspiration to entail? The examples we have been given so far do nothing to demonstrate that the biblical writers knew anything more than could be ascribed simply to observant human beings without any divine assistance.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #93

Post by 1213 »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pm ...So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
...
For me Bible is mainly about what is good/right and righteousness. If someone would say he found an old scripture that tells, “no murder is not wrong, you can kill as much as you want, don’t care what Jesus says”, I think it would be wrong. In my opinion it is not a matter of belief, but about right understanding. So, to counter my “belief”, one should be able to reason why it is not wrong to murder for example.

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The Barbarian
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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #94

Post by The Barbarian »

Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:03 am If the apostles, or other devotees of Christianity, perpetrated a fraud concerning the resurrection, it wouldn't be hard to perpetrate a further fraud concerning the deaths of the apostles.
Tcg
And that, if confirmed, would shake my confidence in Christianity.
What verifiable evidence do you rely on to convince you that this isn't the case?
Pretty much anything verified. That's what "confirmed"means.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #95

Post by Tcg »

The Barbarian wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:49 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:03 am If the apostles, or other devotees of Christianity, perpetrated a fraud concerning the resurrection, it wouldn't be hard to perpetrate a further fraud concerning the deaths of the apostles.
Tcg
And that, if confirmed, would shake my confidence in Christianity.
What verifiable evidence do you rely on to convince you that this isn't the case?
Pretty much anything verified. That's what "confirmed"means.
I wasn't asking for a definition of the word, "verified." I was asking what specific verifiable evidence has convinced you. On what verifiable evidence do you base your conclusion that the apostles actually died for their faith?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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The Barbarian
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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #96

Post by The Barbarian »

Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 pm
What verifiable evidence do you rely on to convince you that this isn't the case?
Pretty much anything verified. That's what "confirmed"means.
I wasn't asking for a definition of the word, "verified." I was asking what specific verifiable evidence has convinced you.
No one has presented any so far. The question was "what would it take for you to disavow your religion and religious belief?"

I've pointed out one way. So far, no one's presented any of that.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #97

Post by Tcg »

The Barbarian wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:15 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 pm
What verifiable evidence do you rely on to convince you that this isn't the case?
Pretty much anything verified. That's what "confirmed"means.
I wasn't asking for a definition of the word, "verified." I was asking what specific verifiable evidence has convinced you.
No one has presented any so far. The question was "what would it take for you to disavow your religion and religious belief?"

I've pointed out one way. So far, no one's presented any of that.
That's not the question I've asked you. Here's the question that for some reason you cut out of your response:
"On what verifiable evidence do you base your conclusion that the apostles actually died for their faith?"
I asked because I couldn't find any. Given how important this is to your faith, I assumed you'd have an answer. Perhaps I was mistaken.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #98

Post by Purple Knight »

brunumb wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:29 amThe examples we have been given so far do nothing to demonstrate that the biblical writers knew anything more than could be ascribed simply to observant human beings without any divine assistance.
Very observant, very intelligent human beings, given the limitations of knowledge at that time, but yes. I'm not saying any of this proves Christianity, but the start of this conversation was JW saying that scripture and science agree. Often, they do. So in this case he's right.
brunumb wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:29 amWhat exactly do you consider divine inspiration to entail?
I'm an atheist so I probably wouldn't know it if I saw it. Even if someone knew more than they possibly could, and had so many hits in proportion to misses (gotta factor in misses too) that it was unlikely they'd be getting that success ratio by chance, I'd gravitate towards a slightly less extreme explanation, such as memory transmission. There are already studies that suggest memories can be genetically transmitted, or even spontaneously transmitted, so this is almost certainly where I'd go.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #99

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:03 am
I'm not saying any of this proves Christianity, but the start of this conversation was JW saying that scripture and science agree. Often, they do. So in this case he's right.
Actually JW stated this:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:05 am In my opinion, good (accurate/proven) science always agrees with scripture.
This is a universal claim, not an "Often, they do." claim. If any exceptions are presented, and they have been, then her universal claim is false, and it is.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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The Barbarian
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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #100

Post by The Barbarian »

No one has presented any so far. The question was "what would it take for you to disavow your religion and religious belief?"
I've pointed out one way. So far, no one's presented any of that.
Tcg wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:30 am That's not the question I've asked you.
I know. That was the question in the OP. For some reason, you didn't want to talk about that one.

Which is O.K. We'll go off-topic and address your question.
https://overviewbible.com/how-did-the-apostles-die/

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