What would it take for you?

Argue for and against Christianity

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nobspeople
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What would it take for you?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Recently started watching a Netflix documentary about Mormonism and how (at least up to this point) the church seemed to be going to any and all means to stop documentation from getting out that, they think, would totally uproot their belief system (though I haven't finished it yet).

So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?


For those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #31

Post by bluegreenearth »

bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:20 pm Of course it is not exactly the same. Hence the word “analogous.” That is, it is similar in some ways but different in others. Belief that an object exists is relatively simple (though not all that simple when you really delve into it). Belief about God is more complicated.
Why is belief about God more complicated if you are claiming he can be detected through personal experience in the same way you detect an object like a door?
bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:20 pm I notice that none of these scenarios included “my garbage can was not knocked over.” That is the question at hand when asking, “What would it take…” Having heard a sound like your garbage being knocked over, and then seeing that your garbage can was knocked over, what would it take to convince you that your garbage can was not knocked over?
Are you suggesting that God can be directly observed in the same way that I could directly observe my garbage can? If not, then how is asking what it would take to convince me that my garbage can was not knocked over equivalent to asking how someone could be mistaken in believing God exists?
bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:20 pm Well, false metaphysical claims would contradict one or more of those four.
The metaphysical claims of Hinduism do not contradict Hindu scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. Accordingly, do you believe the metaphysical claims of Hinduism are true?
bjs1 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:20 pm I want to point you back to your above analogy about the garbage can. Having heard and seen that the garbage can was knocked over, what would convince someone that he was mistaken in believe that the garbage can was knocked over?

You are not asking about a detail or an understanding of God. You are directly asking about the proposition that a God of some kind exits. You are asking what would convince someone that his basic perception of reality is false. Belief in the existence of a God of some kind comes from very basic observation of the universe: the apparent existence of order and consciousness and cause and effect.

So what realistic scenario would convince you that your own perception of reality is false?

(Notice that I am not asking you asking what would convince you that God exists. Adding new information is much simpler. I am asking what would convince you that you have perceived reality falsely?)
Many people claim to observe the universe and imagine that a God exists while many other people observe the universe and do not imagine a God exists. Would you agree that both sets of people are observing the same universe regardless of whether a God exists or not? If so, would you also agree that the observable universe is the reality both sets of people are perceiving?

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #32

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pmSo, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
If I had religious belief, nothing. Nothing could sway me from it. If I was going to believe in a god, I'd do so because it was good and helped me be good, not because it existed. So, then, I wouldn't give a fig if it turned out not to have ever existed in the first place.

This struck a chord with me when I was little. I actually thought that this was Aslan, telling me that he didn't actually exist but that it was perfectly fine to believe in him anyway.

"All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and put the best face I can on it. I won't deny any of what you said [Aslan isn't real, Narnia isn't real, the sun and sky aren't real, the underground is the only place that exists]. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things - trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies making up a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia."

- Puddleglum
The Silver Chair, The Chronicles of Narnia

...Then I found out that Aslan = Jesus/God and Christianity is more or less about people being good by definition, by virtue of what they are and not what they do, and that didn't help me be good. So.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #33

Post by Diagoras »

bjs1 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:31 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]
There is a reason that the four ways Christians have historically sought God (Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience) don’t include “science” or “data.” Science studies the physical. God is metaphysical. Science is important, but it doesn’t even attempt to answer metaphysical questions.
<added bolded negation for clarity>

How does this purely metaphysical god interact with anything in the physical universe? It seems that one can grandly declare that “your physical laws don’t apply to god!” which would be special pleading. Appeals to authority (scripture), tradition or experience are commonly seen as weak arguments at best, and logical fallacies at worst. So that leaves reason, but seemingly only non-scientific and non-data derived reasoning, apparently.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #34

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pm
So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?
Nothing will ever allow me to disavow my religion (Christianity). Why? Because look at what is left; atheism.

Atheism/naturalism; when you take away the fluff and the feathers, is the idea that the universe popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing...and that dead matter gradually came to life and began to think, talk, and have sex. I just can't believe that.

Unless I ever get to the point where I lose all rationale and common sense, I could NEVER disavow my theism.

Now, the chances of me turning away from Christianity is more probable (but HIGHLY unlikely), but I can't ever turn away from mere theism.

Like Frank Turek said, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #35

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:20 am Atheism/naturalism; when you take away the fluff and the feathers, is the idea that the universe popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing...and that dead matter gradually came to life and began to think, talk, and have sex. I just can't believe that.
Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with explaining the origins of the universe. I don't know why this has to be constantly explained.

Atheist: Not a theist.

Sure is lots of "fluff and feathers" there.

It is quite hilarious how some will use the "the universe popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing" argument to prop up the idea of a god, but when asked where their god came from, quickly tap dance around the very same issue. All these people have done is move the problem space somewhere else and answered nothing. In fact, they have just created one more problem to solve that wasn't there before.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:20 am Unless I ever get to the point where I lose all rationale and common sense, I could NEVER disavow my theism.

Now, the chances of me turning away from Christianity is more probable (but HIGHLY unlikely), but I can't ever turn away from mere theism.

Like Frank Turek said, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Enjoy your theism. I certainly enjoyed it for a time until the wheels fell of the bus.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #36

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:50 am Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with explaining the origins of the universe. I don't know why this has to be constantly explained.

Atheist: Not a theist.
I won't get suckered into having a debate on this topic, not on this thread. Lets just say we agree/disagree for now.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:50 am It is quite hilarious how some will use the "the universe popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing" argument to prop up the idea of a god, but when asked where their god came from, quickly tap dance around the very same issue. All these people have done is move the problem space somewhere else and answered nothing. In fact, they have just created one more problem to solve that wasn't there before.
LOL. But no one is saying (at least no one that I know) that God "came from" anywhere. So, there is nothing to tap dance around...thus, no issue to be resolved.
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:50 am
Enjoy your theism. I certainly enjoyed it for a time until the wheels fell of the bus.
The wheels fell off because Jesus wanted to see who will remain strong in the end...you apparently lost faith and decided to "jump ship"....meanwhile, those of us who remained faithful are riding high and fine, with Jesus behind the wheel.

Not many people left on the bus, though.

But Jesus did say that the way to eternal life (the direction of the bus) is narrow...and the path to destruction is quite wide (Matt 7:13).

So hey. But tell ya what....Jesus said that if you regain your faith, he will make a U-turn, and come all the way back and get you. We'd like you to ride with us.

Are you down?
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Re: What would it take for you?

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Post by Miles »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:20 am
Nothing will ever allow me to disavow my religion (Christianity). Why? Because look at what is left; atheism.
Evidently then it's the fear of not having someone to comfort you through life that drives your beliefs. Understandable, but hardly admirable.
Atheism/naturalism; when you take away the fluff and the feathers, is the idea that the universe popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing...and that dead matter gradually came to life and began to think, talk, and have sex. I just can't believe that.
Ah yes, when all else fails make up straw men to knock down. Again, understandable, but hardly admirable.
Unless I ever get to the point where I lose all rationale and common sense, I could NEVER disavow my theism.
So just what is this "rationale and common sense" that drives you to believe in the unprovable? No need to answer, we know what it is: psychological need.
Like Frank Turek said, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
If you knew what atheism is (pssst! it's simply a lack of belief in god(s) ) you would never be impressed by such a stupid remark. Or at least you shouldn't be.


.

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Re: What would it take for you?

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Miles wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:59 pm Evidently then it's the fear of not having someone to comfort you through life that drives your beliefs. Understandable, but hardly admirable.
In that case, then on the flip side; it is the thought of being held accountable to a cosmic creator, a person of whom will spank you if you lust, lie, cheat, and steal....people would rather not be accountable held for their actions, and this is the driving force behind their disbeliefs.

See what I did there?
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:59 pm Ah yes, when all else fails make up straw men to knock down. Again, understandable, but hardly admirable.
It is the actual factuals that I am dropping on you.
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:59 pm So just what is this "rationale and common sense" that drives you to believe in the unprovable? No need to answer, we know what it is: psychological need.
Unprovable to who? To you? I wouldn't believe it if it wasn't convinced by it.
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:59 pm If you knew what atheism is (pssst! it's simply a lack of belief in god(s) ) you would never be impressed by such a stupid remark. Or at least you shouldn't be.
Right, and a lack of a belief in God only opens the door to inanimate life gradually coming to life and beginning to talk.

And once you walk through that door, you are stepping into irrationality. That may be a fine place for you to dwell, but not me.
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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #39

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:27 pm LOL. But no one is saying (at least no one that I know) that God "came from" anywhere. So, there is nothing to tap dance around...thus, no issue to be resolved.
Of course they are not 'saying' that, they are too busy avoiding this uncomfortable problem. It's called special pleading.

Our universe could simply be an ever existing form of energy that is constantly changing state. No one knows that the current universe came from nothing either so claiming that is simply making something up and stating it to be true.

Whatever claim you can come up with about your god, can also apply to the energy that makes up the universe. Any attempt to make one special is by definition special pleading. It's dead in the water as far as arguments go.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:14 pm
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:50 am
Enjoy your theism. I certainly enjoyed it for a time until the wheels fell of the bus.
The wheels fell off because Jesus wanted to see who will remain strong in the end...you apparently lost faith and decided to "jump ship"....meanwhile, those of us who remained faithful are riding high and fine, with Jesus behind the wheel.

Not many people left on the bus, though.

But Jesus did say that the way to eternal life (the direction of the bus) is narrow...and the path to destruction is quite wide (Matt 7:13).

So hey. But tell ya what....Jesus said that if you regain your faith, he will make a U-turn, and come all the way back and get you. We'd like you to ride with us.

Are you down?
If there were only one bus, it might be tempting. The problem is there is a veritable traffic jam of buses of various different colors, drivers, and passengers. What you are asking is akin to jumping on a random city bus without bothering to check the route map or the schedule.

I read the route map for the bus I was on and discovered it was actually not as initially advertised. I looked closely and found countess issues with it that could only come from people who know nothing about efficient bus systems, but seemed fine pasting stuff together that made no sense. Even when they tried to copy bits of it and expand it to suit their own agendas. It just ended up being a confusing collage. An interesting art project, but hardly the work of an inspired leader that should be followed.

I'm currently at the info booth asking about all the busses and it seems no one behind the counter can provide a coherent answer. Until I get one, I'm not jumping on a random bus.

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Re: What would it take for you?

Post #40

Post by nobspeople »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:20 am
nobspeople wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pm
So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?
Nothing will ever allow me to disavow my religion (Christianity). Why? Because look at what is left; atheism.

Atheism/naturalism; when you take away the fluff and the feathers, is the idea that the universe popped into being, uncaused, out of nothing...and that dead matter gradually came to life and began to think, talk, and have sex. I just can't believe that.

Unless I ever get to the point where I lose all rationale and common sense, I could NEVER disavow my theism.

Now, the chances of me turning away from Christianity is more probable (but HIGHLY unlikely), but I can't ever turn away from mere theism.

Like Frank Turek said, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
I suppose if one wants to think in a binary way, that would be your only options. But I think there's more available if one would want to explore them. I think, if you look hard enough, there are many other types of beliefs outside non-belief.
But thanks for your feedback!
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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