Recently started watching a Netflix documentary about Mormonism and how (at least up to this point) the church seemed to be going to any and all means to stop documentation from getting out that, they think, would totally uproot their belief system (though I haven't finished it yet).
So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?
For those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?
What would it take for you?
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #2I guess for me, the initial impetus was "Science," but I guess the tipping point or beginning of the end was being able to see "the man behind the curtain." I don't just mean a single individual, like Joseph Smith, but seeing the humanity of the Bible in things like its mythic elements and political viewpoints.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pmFor those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?
The initial seeds of doubt were planted by Jacob's manipulation of goat phenotypes with striped sticks in Genesis 30:37-43. The Christians around me were telling me that the Bible was literally true in its entirety and I realized that they must be wrong. At the time, I was a teenager and didn't quite grasp the mythic power of the Bible, so I pretty much just ascribed it to the ancients being unsophisticated goobers and left it at that. Gradually, I realized that though it hadn't been difficult to see that the Bible couldn't be literal history, I was the unsophisticated one and had missed much of the actual story behind the Bible. Probably the book that had the most impact on me was Asimov's Guide to the Bible. It's pretty superficial and not exactly academic in its treatment of the Bible, but it's what I would call realistic. It never really occurred to me that there could be broader contexts to the Bible that didn't just revolve around magical thinking. Asimov explains the social and political backdrop of much of the Old Testament in a way that I hadn't really thought about before, but shaped my future ability to see the Bible for what it is rather than simply as a failure of what most Christians wanted it to be.
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #3May I ask were you a Mormon?
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #4Thanks for the response.Difflugia wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:56 pmI guess for me, the initial impetus was "Science," but I guess the tipping point or beginning of the end was being able to see "the man behind the curtain." I don't just mean a single individual, like Joseph Smith, but seeing the humanity of the Bible in things like its mythic elements and political viewpoints.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pmFor those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?
The initial seeds of doubt were planted by Jacob's manipulation of goat phenotypes with striped sticks in Genesis 30:37-43. The Christians around me were telling me that the Bible was literally true in its entirety and I realized that they must be wrong. At the time, I was a teenager and didn't quite grasp the mythic power of the Bible, so I pretty much just ascribed it to the ancients being unsophisticated goobers and left it at that. Gradually, I realized that though it hadn't been difficult to see that the Bible couldn't be literal history, I was the unsophisticated one and had missed much of the actual story behind the Bible. Probably the book that had the most impact on me was Asimov's Guide to the Bible. It's pretty superficial and not exactly academic in its treatment of the Bible, but it's what I would call realistic. It never really occurred to me that there could be broader contexts to the Bible that didn't just revolve around magical thinking. Asimov explains the social and political backdrop of much of the Old Testament in a way that I hadn't really thought about before, but shaped my future ability to see the Bible for what it is rather than simply as a failure of what most Christians wanted it to be.
Simply curious: you speak of science. Can you (or do you) see the bible as compatible with the bible or no? Can you elaborate either way?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #5If by "disavow my religion" you mean leave the religious organisation with which I associate (as one of Jehovah's Witnesses), I would have to be made to believe it was not the organisation being use by God to fulfill his purpose at this present time AND be directed to another religious organisation that better reflect bible standards, teachings and practices.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pm So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Yes, exactly.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #6JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:37 amIf by "religious belief" you mean my fondamental conviction there is an intelligent Creator of the Universe and that the bible is his meant of communications with mankind, I suppose it would have to be proven there is no God. And then that the bible is not of divine origin.
I don't see how anything written in bible times could achieve the above. Le there is a conflit with recorded history (which is rarely the case ) I will pitch my tent with the bible writters every time.
Certainly not. Why should I believe them over the inspired writers of scripture many of whom claimed to have witnesses the events they reported?
Ditto.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pm Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #7In my opinion, good (accurate/proven) science always agrees with scripture.
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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #8[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #6]
Again, not passing judgment, just making a simple and honest comparison.
There are writings that 'the church' doesn't think are legitimate and thus, not included in canon. Some of those books seem to be counter what is in the modern bible (I don't recall the book, but one of those writings have the teenage Jesus being a typical teenage jerk, as it were; bring a dead bird back to life against the wishes of Joseph, is one story if memory serves, but don't quote me - it's been a long time since I've read it). So there are writings available, rather or not they're believable is another discussion. But, I don't see how they could be any more or less believable than the book that are in the modern bible, outside of the 'want' for them to be more or less believable.I don't see how anything written in bible times could achieve the above
Why should you believe in the words are inspired (or not)? Most likely you did because you found them to fit your needs and absorbed them into your life, accepting them as fact based on belief. Which is fine for you. However, it's entirely possible that the opposite could have happened: you could have seen the words, thought them not inspired and moved on with your life. The only variable there is the ability and action of choice.Why should I believe them over the inspired writers of scripture many of whom claimed to have witnesses the events they reported?
Again, not passing judgment, just making a simple and honest comparison.
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #9I was never a Mormon. I was a Wesleyan (a more conservative Methodist, if you're not familiar with them).
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Re: What would it take for you?
Post #10"Data" is controlled largely by Big Tech, which is generally aimed at pursuing their own narrative, which is suppression of dissent.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pm Recently started watching a Netflix documentary about Mormonism and how (at least up to this point) the church seemed to be going to any and all means to stop documentation from getting out that, they think, would totally uproot their belief system (though I haven't finished it yet).
So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?
For those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?
"Science" was bought out by political powers, and is used mainly to pursue their own narrative, which includes suppression of dissent.
"Academia" was subverted over the last 50 years, and is mostly about crushing any dissent with regard to their false narratives.
As for "religious beliefs", if you want to be religious, visit widows and orphans (Isaiah 1:17), and do justice. If you want to see judgment and destruction, follow your own false narratives (Ez 34).