What would it take for you?

[nobspeople]

Recently started watching a Netflix documentary about Mormonism and how (at least up to this point) the church seemed to be going to any and all means to stop documentation from getting out that, they think, would totally uproot their belief system (though I haven't finished it yet).

So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
Testimony of how it's a farce from those who spent the majority of their lives in it, finally seeing their own light?
Science?
Data?
Another, more believable religion?


For those of us who are in the 'been-there-done-that-bought-the-t-shirt' crowd, what was it that caused you to change?

[Tcg]

No one has presented any so far. The question was "what would it take for you to disavow your religion and religious belief?"
I've pointed out one way. So far, no one's presented any of that.

That's not the question I've asked you.

I know. That was the question in the OP. For some reason, you didn't want to talk about that one.

Yes, I am addressing your response in post #81.

Which is O.K. We'll go off-topic and address your question.
https://overviewbible.com/how-did-the-apostles-die/

That article is dated Dec 17, 2019. Unless your faith is very new, I can't imagine this is what it is based on.

Additionally, very early in that article it states, "Let’s begin with a quick look at all the ways the apostles may have died according to Scripture, tradition, and legend." This clearly isn't a claim of verifiable evidence and rightfully so. In the text we find for example these comments:

"According to church tradition..."

"...the origin of this tradition isn’t as reliable."

"Unfortunately, the origin of this narrative isn’t exactly trustworthy."

"And while there are plenty of legends surrounding famous Christians, it’s not hard to imagine this being true."

"Some accounts suggest a couple others died of natural causes as well, but John’s tradition is the most firmly established."

"Basically, we don’t know how Philip died. But there are plenty of possibilities."

"Bartholomew was probably martyred—but like many of the apostles, there are several ways it may have happened."

"There are several conflicting accounts about Matthew’s death."

"How James son of Alphaeus died depends on whether or not you assume he’s the same person as James the Just (the brother of Jesus)."

"It’s traditionally believed..."

"Like many of the apostles, it’s hard to conclude exactly which tradition (if any) can be trusted:"

"Matthias is the most obscure apostle, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that we can’t be very sure what he did or how he died."

All of this is related to the OP in that you've stated in post 81: "Evidence that these men didn't exist, or that none of them were willing to suffer martyrdom would go a long way toward shaking my faith in Christianity." I'm simply trying to understand what you base your faith that the apostles died for their faith on. If it is something other than verifiable evidence, one has to wonder why it would take verifiable evidence to shake it.


Tcg

[nobspeople]

Can you provide examples of science agreeing with scripture?

THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE



THE BIBLE : “All the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full. To the place from which the rivers come, to there and from there they return again.”​—Ecclesiastes 1:7, The Amplified Bible.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

EVOLUTION, BIBLE & SCIENCE and ...THE 7 CREATIVE DAYS OF GENESIS

FURTHER READING

Reasons to Trust the Bible #4 Scientific Accuracy
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... -accuracy/

Does Science Agree With the Bible?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... the-bible/

Is the Bible Outdated? Or Ahead of Its Time?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/science/

Does this provided example all you to thus believe in things like a talking burning bush that's not consumed? Casting of demons into pigs? Throwing a staff on the ground and it turning in to a snake?
Surely the bible will speak to things of a natural setting that agrees with science, as the bible is mostly observational dictation, but what about the things science hasn't yet described, yet are listed in the bible. How does your 'faith' work these items?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Goose in post #78]

Thanks for the reply

The same as any other belief I currently hold to be true, prove it false (in reference to the question of what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?).

Interesting.
Does this mean your belief in your religion isn't as strong as your belief in anything else you may have (or as strong as, is it the case may be)?
For example:
If you (term used generally) believe in political party XYZ, that belief isn't as strong (or is as strong as) your belief in your religion? And thusly, either could be broken or changed by the same level of convincing?

[nobspeople]

...So, what would it take, for you, to disavow your religion and religious belief?
Documentation from writers of that time period?
Documentation from current high up leaders?
...

For me Bible is mainly about what is good/right and righteousness. If someone would say he found an old scripture that tells, “no murder is not wrong, you can kill as much as you want, don’t care what Jesus says”, I think it would be wrong. In my opinion it is not a matter of belief, but about right understanding. So, to counter my “belief”, one should be able to reason why it is not wrong to murder for example.

Do you fully and correctly understand every single word, thought and meaning in the bible?

[The Barbarian]

No one has presented any so far. The question was "what would it take for you to disavow your religion and religious belief?"
I've pointed out one way. So far, no one's presented any of that.

You wanted to talk about something else, which is O.K. We'll go off-topic and address your question.
https://overviewbible.com/how-did-the-apostles-die/

That article is dated Dec 17, 2019. Unless your faith is very new, I can't imagine this is what it is based on.

The historical accounts at the link. Those historians, at least two who knew the Apostles, wrote those things long before 2019. Thought you knew.

All of this is related to the OP in that you've stated in post 81: "Evidence that these men didn't exist, or that none of them were willing to suffer martyrdom would go a long way toward shaking my faith in Christianity."

Yes. What have you got?

I'm simply trying to understand what you base your faith that the apostles died for their faith on.

Faith and those accounts from the people who lived in those times. There are also logical arguments for God. You might consider St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologiae.

My experience is that few people who reject the testimony of those who were there, will accept logic as it pertains to the question of God.

If it is something other than verifiable evidence, one has to wonder why it would take verifiable evidence to shake it.

One conducts one's life almost exclusively on trust in evidence that fails to meet the standard of proof. I assume that the Earth will continue to rotate and the laws of physics will continue as they have been for a long time, even if I have evidence that they have changed since the beginning, and no proof that they won't change anytime soon. Simply put, truth is a stronger thing than proof.

It seems consistent to believe in God on faith, but I'm puzzled as to how one might disbelieve in Him on faith. But then, I'm not an atheist. As Richard Dawkins points out, a reasonable position for one who does not believe is agnosticism.

[Tcg]

The historical accounts at the link. Those historians, at least two who knew the Apostles, wrote those things long before 2019. Thought you knew.

Now we're getting somewhere. All that is left is for you to provide verifiable evidence that, "at least two who knew the Apostles, wrote those things long before 2019." Oh, and to explain just what the "those things" refers to.


Tcg

[1213]

Do you fully and correctly understand every single word, thought and meaning in the bible?

At the moment I don’t remember anything that I don't understand.

[nobspeople]

Do you fully and correctly understand every single word, thought and meaning in the bible?

At the moment I don’t remember anything that I don't understand.

You said you understand, not fully and correctly understand. That's a big difference. Kudos for answering honestly! I can now read and understand your posts and POV a lot better now.

[Purple Knight]

This is a universal claim, not an "Often, they do." claim. If any exceptions are presented, and they have been, then her universal claim is false, and it is.

You presented the Bible saying the sun rises as an exception where the Bible disagrees with science. To be valid, that requires such a hyper-literal interpretation that you're also saying NASA disagrees with science.

Do you fully and correctly understand every single word, thought and meaning in the bible?

At the moment I don’t remember anything that I don't understand.

I seriously doubt anyone understands Revelations. The bit with the seven-headed monsters and the red dragon waiting to devour a baby... I believe that's Revelations.

[Tcg]

This is a universal claim, not an "Often, they do." claim. If any exceptions are presented, and they have been, then her universal claim is false, and it is.

You presented the Bible saying the sun rises as an exception where the Bible disagrees with science. To be valid, that requires such a hyper-literal interpretation that you're also saying NASA disagrees with science.

Actually I presented this verse:

Ecclesiastes 1:
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.

Note the phrase, "and hurries back to where it rises." The verse is a complete package that indicates the belief that the Sun moves around the earth. Nowhere have I accused NASA of this mistake.


Tcg