We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief. We are told that Christians and other theists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And atheism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those religious beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.
Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?
I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with atheists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among atheists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the religious.
Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Moderator: Moderators
- Paul of Tarsus
- Banned
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:42 pm
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 150 times
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #2Insofar as challenging Christian theology I bet they did come across as horror stories.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief.
In as much as 65% of those in the USA are Christians, AND that there are indeed intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational people in the country, I see it as a very good bet that many such people are very likely to be Christians. Just because someone is a member of a religion is no guarantee that they can't be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. In fact, I recall the results of a study of that showed that number-wise, atheists are significantly more rational than theists.We are told that Christians and other theists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational.
As an atheist, and even before I became one, I personally don't remember anyone touting atheism as any such thing. Must live in different neighborhoods.And atheism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those religious beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.
I would suspect that getting away from anything that generated ills, would be step toward getting better. And in as much as atheism isn't a religion, but merely a stance on a single issue: a lack of belief in the existence of god or gods, leaving religion would do this. I know that giving up drinking helps cure alcoholism.Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?
This is one of those swords that cuts both ways. I wouldn't be calling the kettle black here.I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among atheists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the religious.
.
Last edited by Miles on Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6627 times
- Been thanked: 3222 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #3Given that the vast majority of people are religious, then all the ills you described can certainly be associated with the religious, but obviously not confined to them as you say. What ills do you suggest are unique to the religious that one should seek to find cures for elsewhere? You make it sound like one has to shop around to find a cure and somehow atheism is offered as a candidate. Atheism is not something that one chooses. It offers nothing. When one is not convinced that any gods exist, one is an atheist. It cures nothing. Some people who suffered in some way due to their religious beliefs may have found that the loss of those beliefs gave them relief and comfort. But, it's not a matter of one size fits all. Reading the OP again I feel that what is being attacked is something of a straw man.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #4[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]
Speaking specifically about religions with gods, it would seem if there are cons that come with believing in a god or deity, and you don't believe in that god or deity, then there's no cons that come your way based on that deity or god. That's not to say atheism is perfect and has no cons. But that may depend on whom is asked.
You can believe in a god, but not a religion ("I believe in God, but I'm not religious" many people say or "I'm spiritual"), or a religion but not a god (nature worship, for example). So, in that sense, the answer seems to be no.Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?
Speaking specifically about religions with gods, it would seem if there are cons that come with believing in a god or deity, and you don't believe in that god or deity, then there's no cons that come your way based on that deity or god. That's not to say atheism is perfect and has no cons. But that may depend on whom is asked.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- Purple Knight
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3514
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
- Has thanked: 1139 times
- Been thanked: 733 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #5No. The episode of South Park with the otters taught us that. It's not really as childish as fighting over nomenclature, but when a certain kind of person wants to denounce, chastise, harass and declare others who aren't hurting anyone worse than himself, even if the most convenient excuse to do that is taken away, he'll just move to the next reason or make one up.
The only problem with the South Park episode is that it portrays the other reasons people will fight as foolish, but genuine - each group really believed their group name was the best. The real key - the real 911 call - may be simply to realise that none of the reasons were ever genuine, including religion. The people who want an excuse to fight will fight. They will find an excuse.
The only real help for this is to nip it in the bud when it starts, and that's when a group of people starts terrorising others with finger-pointing and accusations of immorality. The latter group may be guilty of immorality but, if so, the question to ask is whether the moral people want to solve the problem. Do they give the immoral people an opportunity to change or do they make it obscenely difficult, claim the people in question can't change, or present an impossibly high bar?
The only problem with the South Park episode is that it portrays the other reasons people will fight as foolish, but genuine - each group really believed their group name was the best. The real key - the real 911 call - may be simply to realise that none of the reasons were ever genuine, including religion. The people who want an excuse to fight will fight. They will find an excuse.
The only real help for this is to nip it in the bud when it starts, and that's when a group of people starts terrorising others with finger-pointing and accusations of immorality. The latter group may be guilty of immorality but, if so, the question to ask is whether the moral people want to solve the problem. Do they give the immoral people an opportunity to change or do they make it obscenely difficult, claim the people in question can't change, or present an impossibly high bar?
- bluegreenearth
- Guru
- Posts: 1917
- Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 pm
- Location: Manassas, VA
- Has thanked: 681 times
- Been thanked: 470 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #6I've rewritten your original post to make a point:Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief. We are told that Christians and other theists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And atheism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those religious beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.
Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?
I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with atheists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among atheists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the religious.
We've all heard the horror stories preached by theists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of secular belief. We are told that atheists and other secularists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And theism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those secular beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.
Is it true that theism cures the supposed ills of atheism?
I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with theists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among theists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the non-religious.
- Paul of Tarsus
- Banned
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:42 pm
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 150 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #7Sure. A lot of theology people have created is horrible and in many instances wrong. I know of no Christian who disputes that fact.Miles wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:48 pmInsofar as challenging Christian theology I bet they did come across as horror stories.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief.
Many professing Christians are like that. Who said they aren't? You will find many intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational people in any society including predominately atheistic societies. Do you think that the people in Soviet Russia weren't like that? How about France during the reign of terror?In as much as 65% of those in the USA are Christians, AND that there are indeed intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational people in the country, I see it as a very good bet that many such people are very likely to be Christians.
Well I see that atheists like to cite studies lauding their virtues. And I thought only Christians do that! In any event, I don't really see atheists as more rational than theists, study or no study. Considering much of the tortured logic that many atheists use on this board, I'm left an unbeliever regarding that claim....I recall the results of a study of that showed that number-wise, atheists are significantly more rational than theists.
Many of the "new atheists" including Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are very often harping on the supposed ills of religious faith. They are obviously implying that atheism can do better.As an atheist, and even before I became one, I personally don't remember anyone touting atheism as any such thing.
The fallacy in your reasoning here is your failure to consider that leaving one ill in no way guarantees that one will adopt a lesser ill in its place. Giving up drinking may cure alcoholism, but it doesn't help much if the former alcoholic starts abusing heroine. Is belief in no gods less harmful than belief in a God? That's far from established, and I'd recommend you not assume what you're trying to prove.I would suspect that getting away from anything that generated ills, would be step toward getting better. And in as much as atheism isn't a religion, but merely a stance on a single issue: a lack of belief in the existence of god or gods, leaving religion would do this. I know that giving up drinking helps cure alcoholism.
- Paul of Tarsus
- Banned
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:42 pm
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 150 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #8Is that a no?brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:27 amGiven that the vast majority of people are religious, then all the ills you described can certainly be associated with the religious, but obviously not confined to them as you say.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?
What ills do you suggest are unique to the religious that one should seek to find cures for elsewhere?
Like I mentioned; fanaticism, cruelty, and irrationality are ills that people may seek to escape by forsaking religion. There's an entire atheist organization that's dedicated to that premise/promise: the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF). Leave religion, and be "free"!
I didn't really come up with the idea. See FFRF above.You make it sound like one has to shop around to find a cure and somehow atheism is offered as a candidate.
Assuming that people cannot choose to believe or disbelieve, then you are correct.Atheism is not something that one chooses.
Isn't it more accurate to say that atheism offers nobody?It offers nothing.
When one is not convinced that any gods exist, one is an atheist.
That's a newer definition that's popular among many atheists nowadays. A more "traditional" definition is that an atheist is a person who actively denies that God exists.
In what way is the OP a straw man?Reading the OP again I feel that what is being attacked is something of a straw man.
- Paul of Tarsus
- Banned
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:42 pm
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 150 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #9I'm not sure what your point is. If you are saying that religion is no cure for the presumed ills of atheism, then you might be right, but that's not the issue. Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?bluegreenearth wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:39 pm I've rewritten your original post to make a point:We've all heard the horror stories preached by theists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of secular belief. We are told that atheists and other secularists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And theism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those secular beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.
Is it true that theism cures the supposed ills of atheism?
I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with theists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among theists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the non-religious.
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6627 times
- Been thanked: 3222 times
Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?
Post #10How does that answer my question (bolded above)?Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:38 pmWhat ills do you suggest are unique to the religious that one should seek to find cures for elsewhere?
Like I mentioned; fanaticism, cruelty, and irrationality are ills that people may seek to escape by forsaking religion. There's an entire atheist organization that's dedicated to that premise/promise: the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF). Leave religion, and be "free"!
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.