Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Paul of Tarsus
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Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief. We are told that Christians and other theists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And atheism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those religious beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.

Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?

I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with atheists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among atheists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the religious.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #21

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:58 pm Some atheists out of anger against religion may reject all of it including the moral tenets that religion teaches. Anything associated with religion might be deemed as bad, and anything religion opposes might be seen as good. I've wondered, for example, if that's why so many atheists zealously support euthanasia: Many religions oppose euthanasia, so euthanasia has got to be good!
My bold
You seem to be on a fishing expedition there. If you take God out of the picture then what is the issue concerning euthanasia? I'm sensing a strong agenda on your part to tarnish atheists in any way possible. Can you substantiate any of the assertions you made?
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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #22

Post by Miles »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:16 pm
Miles wrote:
Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?
"I would suspect that getting away from anything that generated ills, would be step toward getting better. And in as much as atheism isn't a religion, but merely a stance on a single issue: a lack of belief in the existence of god or gods, leaving religion would do this. I know that giving up drinking helps cure alcoholism.
The fallacy in your reasoning here is your failure to consider that leaving one ill in no way guarantees that one will adopt a lesser ill in its place.
I didn't say it would "guarantee" or even imply that some other ill couldn't come and take the place of another. What I said was "I would suspect that getting away from anything that generated ills, would be a step toward getting better." And isn't this how our medical practice works, not that solving one ailment guarantees no other will come along and take its place, but that in solving an ailment at least IT will be taken care of?

If you played tennis so much that you got tennis elbow (the inflammation or, in some cases, microtearing of the tendons that join the forearm muscles on the outside of the elbow.) that giving up tennis, at least for awhile, would likely cure it? Not that it would likely cure it and prevent you from getting shin splints if you took up running.


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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #23

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:40 pmHow are fanaticism, cruelty, and irrationality unique to religion?
I suppose it depends on whom you ask. Since you're asking me, I'd say that fanaticism, cruelty, and irrationality are not unique to religion, but evidently some atheists appear to downplay that fact if not fail to recognize it.
While I agree that these things are a feature of many religious sects, how can one escape these simply by choosing to not believe when the issue of belief in gods is not a matter of choice?
Well, I've been trying to say all along that you probably cannot avoid the basic ills of religion by simply giving up religion. It would be nice if it was that simple.
Shunning is one of the cruelest weapons that can be wielded against them.
Social ostracism can be painful, but religion is by no means the only segment of society that employs it. Whenever people organize in groups, they have certain expectations of the members of those groups. If a member fails to meet and maintain those expectations, then that member is likely to be cast out of that group. Often the group may have good reasons to cast a member out. That's why we have prisons, for example: If some people in our society prove to be dangerous to other people by committing crimes, then they are removed from society and locked up where they presumably cannot harm the innocent.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #24

Post by Tcg »

brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:50 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:58 pm Some atheists out of anger against religion may reject all of it including the moral tenets that religion teaches. Anything associated with religion might be deemed as bad, and anything religion opposes might be seen as good. I've wondered, for example, if that's why so many atheists zealously support euthanasia: Many religions oppose euthanasia, so euthanasia has got to be good!
My bold
You seem to be on a fishing expedition there. If you take God out of the picture then what is the issue concerning euthanasia? I'm sensing a strong agenda on your part to tarnish atheists in any way possible. Can you substantiate any of the assertions you made?
Yes, given that theists can't present verifiable evidence of god/gods, some will resort to tarnishing the reputations of those who disagree with their reliance on the god/gods they can't present verifiable evidence of. It's nothing more than an absurd universal Ad Hominem. I guess if that's all one has, that's what one will present.


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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #25

Post by Purple Knight »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:04 pmWell, I've been trying to say all along that you probably cannot avoid the basic ills of religion by simply giving up religion.
I agree with this. People will just go to the next-most convenient excuse to fight, to exclude others, to hate, to hurt, to use others as a simultaneous punching bag and virtue signal.

Getting rid of religion is treating the symptom, not the disease.

The disease is people. People can't evolve. If any species on Earth has a unique reason to doubt evolution, it's humans, who remain a gaggle of hooting chimps, eager for the next thing to whoop at, still more eager to become the alpha. They think of nothing else but who to exclude to gain status, who to hurt to gain status, and who to please to gain status. If religion fits this model perfectly it's simply because humans create and administrate the religion.
Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:04 pmYes, given that theists can't present verifiable evidence of god/gods, some will resort to tarnishing the reputations of those who disagree with their reliance on the god/gods they can't present verifiable evidence of. It's nothing more than an absurd universal Ad Hominem. I guess if that's all one has, that's what one will present.
This is a particularly good example of why I don't think ad hominem is necessarily a fallacy. If, for example, only 10% of religious people are murderers, but 35% of atheists are, that's not irrelevant. We don't know what it's saying exactly but it's saying something.

Unfortunately we live in a world where many see it as the other way round because many of the atrocities have been committed by the religious. They're on the defensive in this way, but if they find instances of atheism being linked with X, Y, or Z, they're certainly entitled to use the same ammunition.

(However, I won't accept the connection of the stereotypical angry atheist rejecting good morals that happen to come from religion without some good evidence.)

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #26

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:15 pm
This is a particularly good example of why I don't think ad hominem is necessarily a fallacy. If, for example, only 10% of religious people are murderers, but 35% of atheists are, that's not irrelevant.
Please take note that neither you, or anyone else here, has provided evidence that your "example" is factual. Until this has been accomplished, any such claims are indeed irrelevant.


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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #27

Post by Purple Knight »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:34 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:15 pm
This is a particularly good example of why I don't think ad hominem is necessarily a fallacy. If, for example, only 10% of religious people are murderers, but 35% of atheists are, that's not irrelevant.
Please take note that neither you, or anyone else here, has provided evidence that your "example" is factual. Until this has been accomplished, any such claims are indeed irrelevant.
My claim wasn't that the example was true; it was just a for example. My claim was that if there really is some such pattern, that matters. It matters exactly as much as the link between Catholics and pederasty.

In fact the pattern is opposite. Atheists are underrepresented in prisons, and the least religious countries (and even states within the United States) see less crime.

Personally, however, I'm willing to excuse much, if not all, of the correlation here simply because it is possible that religion attracts the bad people rather than creates them. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is true because, by encouraging blind faith, religions encourage the wrong sort of trust in their leaders. It happens to be easiest to use religion to do some particular things. That doesn't mean taking away religion is going to cure people of wanting to do those things or even make it significantly more difficult to do them. That's what I think Paul is getting at and I agree.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #28

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:04 pm Often the group may have good reasons to cast a member out. That's why we have prisons, for example: If some people in our society prove to be dangerous to other people by committing crimes, then they are removed from society and locked up where they presumably cannot harm the innocent.
That's a far cry from shunning family members and friends because they no longer share the same religious beliefs.
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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #29

Post by brunumb »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:15 pm If, for example, only 10% of religious people are murderers, but 35% of atheists are, that's not irrelevant.
Is that actually the case, or have you just made up some hypothetical statistic? Interestingly, theists seem to make up the majority of incarcerated people.
According to the 2013 census, completed by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the U.S. prison population continues to decline. The estimated number of inmates in the prison system was 1,574,700 people.[9] Of these people, less than 1% (.07%) of inmates identify as atheists.
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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #30

Post by Purple Knight »

brunumb wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:04 pmIs that actually the case, or have you just made up some hypothetical statistic?
It's just hypothetical. I wanted people to see that this goes both ways. Statistics aren't meaningless and nobody has to be attacking a particular individual just because some horrid correlation happens to be true. It could be something as silly and fantastical as atheists are over-represented in the population of lycanthropes, and if it happens to be true we're not calling anyone a werewolf just by saying the statistic isn't meaningless, or by questioning what the connection could be, or by suggesting a possible connection.

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