Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Paul of Tarsus
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Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief. We are told that Christians and other theists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And atheism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those religious beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.

Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?

I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with atheists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among atheists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the religious.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #51

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:41 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:09 pm I'll do my best to explain it to you:

Being in the rain is a bad situation because it will get you all wet.
Jumping into the lake will get you out of the rain.
Being in the lake is wetter than being in the rain.
Your conclusion: Go ahead and jump into the lake because you insist that you must get out of a bad situation, in this case, the rain.

Personally, I'd stay in the rain. Yes, it's bad to get all wet in the rain, but I realize it's wetter in the lake. So if some people get "rained on" as Christians, then their becoming atheists won't do them any good if they end up in the lake.
No need to explain it to me, I understand. It's just a stupid example.
Well, I obviously disagree with that. My illustration clarified why your logic is faulty. It's always wise to look before you leap.
You have managed to equate standing in the rain with being in an abusive relationship.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but being caught in the rain and being in an abusive relationship are both bad situations. The degree of "badness" or how two bad situations compare is irrelevant to my point. I'm saying that no matter how bad a situation is, some situations can be worse, and you are wise to know what you're getting into. Obviously. Of course. Any atheist knows that!

By the way, a lot of people do remain in abusive relationships because they fear the consequences of leaving. My oldest brother, for example, has a lot of trouble with his live-in girlfriend. He thinks that she'll really make his life hell if he tries to evict her. So he remains in that relationship.

So not only is my viewpoint logical, but many people know it is logical and practice it.
You don't become an atheist to escape from the ills of Christianity. When you realise that there is no God, you automatically become an atheist by definition. Some atheists prefer to live in the Christian closet in order to avoid rejection, shunning and the loss of family and friends. So, having to live a lie is one of the ills of Christianity. Very sad.
That can work both ways. Atheist activist Madalyn Murray O'Hair disowned one of her sons when he became a Christian. No doubt a lot of other people in atheist organizations fear the same kind of consequences should they convert to a religion. Atheism is no sure cure for shunning.
Stalin was clearly not a good person. How should becoming an atheist have cured that?
You tell me! In Stalin's case his becoming an atheist was no cure for the ills of religion.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #52

Post by Rational Atheist »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]

Atheism alone is not enough. General skepticism in all areas is necessary.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Rational Atheist wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:04 pm [Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #1]

Atheism alone is not enough. General skepticism in all areas is necessary.
"General" skepticism would involve being skeptical about atheism, or do you make a special exception for atheism?

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #54

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief. We are told that Christians and other theists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And atheism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those religious beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.

Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?

I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with atheists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among atheists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the religious.
It looks like this thread has run its course. So to answer my own question, I must answer that no, the ills of religion are not cured by atheism. At best, atheism may mitigate some of the ills that are specific to religion, but very often those ills are replaced by if not caused by atheism. We have seen on this very thread some of that muddled thinking and irrationality mentioned in the OP used by some of the atheists here. I see they've forfeited the debate by giving up. It's the wisest decision I've seen them make.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #55

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The thread may indeed have run its' course, but there may be something to say about atheism as a cure for the (supposed) ills of religion.

The world can manage with religion. So long as it's kept in check. I hardly need to give examples of where it hasn't been. A dose of skepticism is not bad for making sure that it stays where it should stay - out of politics.

Suppose religions were to disappear and nobody did religion or believed in gods. Would mankind become perfect? Not a chance. Would mankind collapse in a orgy of looting, rape and murder? No, not a chance. Because people essentially want to live and let live. You need Law to stop people doing whatever they like and never mind anyone else, but that has been the case when we had religion, too, and sometimes it's had to be applied To religion.

So I'd say the bottom line is what would happen to society is Not the bottom line of the argument. The apologetics of 'We need religion, true or not' (because
society would collapse without it) are, I would argue, false and if society didn't improve, it would be swings and roundabouts.

The bottom line is whether religion is, on all evidence, true. If it isn't, we really don't need it. We shouldn't teach it and we shouldn't want it to dominate in social life, let alone Law, politics or education.

If people want to believe, let them - as they do in UFO's Bigfoot or Atlantis. And let them publish what they believe - the discussion is always going to be welcome and lively. But the evidence is going to come down on the side of doubt and question, and you may take my word for it, and this is just the forum to show that to be the case and it's one reason I'm here.

Atheism is, I would argue, on reason and evidence, True (the better argument) and that's why is it something that society should have, not that it is is going to be some magical cure for the 'Ills' of religion. Though if it was, that would be a bonus.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #56

Post by Purple Knight »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:15 pmIt looks like this thread has run its course. So to answer my own question, I must answer that no, the ills of religion are not cured by atheism.
Many of the ills associated with religion are not religious in nature. For example, this graphic posted by TCG in another thread is accurate, except for the fact that religion itself has virtually nothing to do with this sort of thinking.
Tcg wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:30 am Image
The cause of this malicious cycle of masochism is the cult of positive thinking. The point of the chart is that praying might not actually be able to solve the problem in question, and the chart proceeds in a way such that the solution is never at fault for lack of success.

Just take "pray" and replace it with think positively. Think positively, and you can overcome any obstacle. Think positively, and nothing negative will ever happen to you. If something negative happened, you brought it on yourself by thinking negatively. Think more positively in the future.

See how this follows the same pattern of anti-falsifiability? The solution can't be at fault. The solution is perfect. YOU must be to blame.

This garbage didn't come from religion, though religions may adopt it. It comes from the human desire to be unfalsifiably right despite lack of actual knowledge. Someone who offers a genuine solution may be proven wrong, but someone who just offers the same solution to everything and blames those who implement the solution when it fails seems like a genius. People do this because it works. And people are afraid to offer a genuine solution because humans are far too quick to use even one strike against someone genuinely trying to figure things out to discount him forever. Humans are too picky and want spotless records of correctitude, and this unfalsifiability is the only way to impress them. None of these are problems with specifically religion.

They're problems with people.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #57

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:39 pm For example, this graphic posted by TCG in another thread is accurate, except for the fact that religion itself has virtually nothing to do with this sort of thinking.
This religious author reveals the fallacy of your assertion:
"God Works in Mysterious Ways" - Biblical Truth or Myth?

Yes, God Does Work in Mysterious Ways
Does God work in mysterious ways? Is it a Biblical truth? I believe the answer to these questions are both yes. While you may not find this exact verse in Scripture, you can be confident that you can build your life on the ways that God has lined out.

Let me repeat, it does not mean that you will always understand them, but you can always trust them. At the end of the day God’s ways and thoughts towards you are good. God’s plan and purpose for you are good as well. This is what you are trusting in.

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bible-s ... -ways.html
Just as the flowchart shows, "Let me repeat, it does not mean that you will always understand them, but you can always trust them." Yep, same sentiment from a religious dude.


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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Post by Purple Knight »

Tcg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:54 pmThis religious author reveals the fallacy of your assertion:
There's no fallacy. I well admit religions use this methodology and that the chart is accurate.

I just don't think this sort of blind faith in the One Solution comes from religion... I think it sometimes produces religion.

But there secular believers in the One Solution too. Positive thinking works exactly the same way, which is evidence for this being a people problem, not a religious problem... unless you define this sort of thinking as religious.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #59

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:07 pm
Tcg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:54 pmThis religious author reveals the fallacy of your assertion:
There's no fallacy. I well admit religions use this methodology and that the chart is accurate.

I just don't think this sort of blind faith in the One Solution comes from religion... I think it sometimes produces religion.

But there secular believers in the One Solution too. Positive thinking works exactly the same way, which is evidence for this being a people problem, not a religious problem... unless you define this sort of thinking as religious.
You stated this: "...except for the fact that religion itself has virtually nothing to do with this sort of thinking."

I've just shown that religion does in fact involve this kind of thinking.


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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #60

Post by Purple Knight »

Tcg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:10 pmYou stated this: "...except for the fact that religion itself has virtually nothing to do with this sort of thinking."

I've just shown that religion does in fact involve this kind of thinking.
And I've admitted that religion does involve this sort of thinking. Twice. I already clarified that yes, religions adopt this thinking, and yes, the chart is an accurate depiction of many of the religious. When I said to do with, I meant it as a part of this statement:
Purple Knight wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:39 pmMany of the ills associated with religion are not religious in nature.
The positive thinking is the same variety of idea, and it's not religious.

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