Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Paul of Tarsus
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Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

We've all heard the horror stories preached by atheists (or at least I've heard them) regarding the presumed ill effects of religious belief. We are told that Christians and other theists tend to be intolerant, narrow-minded, fanatical, often immoral, and irrational. And atheism, if not the cure for these ills, is "the 911 call." It's a step in the right direction toward truth and logic and laying to rest all those religious beliefs that have led to so much injustice and cruelty.

Is it true that atheism cures the supposed ills of religion?

I must admit that at one time I thought it was. However, after many debates with atheists, I'm not so sure anymore. I've seen a LOT of muddled thinking among atheists in those discussions not to mention intolerance for opposing viewpoints. Fanaticism and irrationality apparently are not the unique traits of the religious.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #41

Post by Miles »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:02 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:03 pm
and it's good that you concede that becoming an atheist to escape religion's ills may well end in failure. It often does fail.
Hardly. I know I never conceded that I became an atheist to escape religion's ills.
But you did make the concession that atheism can fail to free a person from religion's presumed ills. That's the point I was making. You are misrepresenting what I said.
I think it's more that I misrepresented what I said.

And isn't this how our medical practice works, not that solving one ailment guarantees no other will come along and take its place, but that in solving an ailment at least IT will be taken care of?
No, that's not really how medical science works, or at least that's not how it should work.
So the medical field doesn't work to cure people and leave as few adverse effects as possible? Interesting.
I've noticed that you've omitted most of what I said about this issue back on post 35. Anybody can go back and read it to see that I already fully addressed the topic. They should be able to see how your question twists what I posted.
If you can't make the case for yourself by quoting your own words, I'm certainly not going to do it for you.

As any physician worth her salt knows, a cure can be worse than the illness.
Gee, you really think so? Image
Is that the best you can do to rebut my analogy? Post a rolling-eyed smiley?
No more than it deserves. :)

And truthfully, our little tet a tet here has grown stale. Have the last word if you wish, I'm going to keep tabs on my latest OP, Why Are The Missing Years Of Jesus Missing? Please take a stab at it.


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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #42

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:26 pm
Well, people can and often do give up religion only to adopt a secular view that is just as bad. For instance, I know a man who many years ago forsook Catholicism, and not long after that he got nabbed by the police for DUI and hit and run. He was very shaken by the experience, and to deal with it he got heavily into pop psychology. He started preaching the gospel of positive self-image and positive thinking. If you were guilty of the sin of bitterness, self-loathing or pessimism, then you had better get thee to the nearest psychologist to confess those sins and have the devils cast out of thee via therapy. It was all basically nonsense, but he had a powerful faith in the all-mighty psycho-profession.
"The Power of Positive Thinking" was developed by an American pastor:
Norman Vincent Peale

Norman Vincent Peale (May 31, 1898 – December 24, 1993) was an American minister and author who is best known for his work in popularizing the concept of positive thinking, especially through his best-selling book The Power of Positive Thinking. He served as the pastor of Marble Collegiate Church, New York, from 1932 until 1984,[1] leading a Reformed Church in America congregation.

Peale was a personal friend of President Richard Nixon. Donald Trump attended Peale's church while growing up. Trump also married his first wife Ivana and attended the funerals of his parents there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Vincent_Peale
Leaving one religious system for another, as your "friend" did, is not evidence of adopting a secular view.


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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:08 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:26 pm Brnumb [brunumb] sees leaving religion as a way of getting over the ills of religion, but that's only an improvement assuming you don't adopt a secular alternative to religion that's as bad or worse.
That can be true of anything so you have made no point at all. Should one stay in an abusive relationship, for example, because leaving may only lead to something worse? It makes no sense.
If the only alternative to an abusive relationship is something worse, then yes, as any school kid knows, you stay in the abusive relationship. It makes perfect sense.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:26 pm As my friend's experience as described above demonstrates, "escaping religion" is often just a leap from one frying pan into another if not into the fire itself.
"One swallow doesn't make a summer". No doubt there are examples where escaping religion led to a happy, rich and rewarding life. Trying to generalise from one example is meaningless.
I'm not arguing what the percentage of bad transitions from religion to atheism is, only that it sometimes is a change for the worse. I'm right. Get used to it.

Stalin's leaving religion for atheism is yet another example of that "into the fire" deconversion. He should have remained in the seminary.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #44

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:25 pm Leaving one religious system for another, as your "friend" did, is not evidence of adopting a secular view.
His obsession with psychology was a secular substitute for religion. Atheists need hope too.

And just because a pastor develops a philosophy, then that philosophy is not necessarily a religion, of course.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

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Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 pm
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:08 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:26 pm Brnumb [brunumb] sees leaving religion as a way of getting over the ills of religion, but that's only an improvement assuming you don't adopt a secular alternative to religion that's as bad or worse.
That can be true of anything so you have made no point at all. Should one stay in an abusive relationship, for example, because leaving may only lead to something worse? It makes no sense.
If the only alternative to an abusive relationship is something worse, then yes, as any school kid knows, you stay in the abusive relationship. It makes perfect sense.
As usual, you are attempting to generalise from limited examples. You are creating very limited and specific scenarios in order to make sure you are right. If the situation you are in stinks, religious or otherwise, you do what you can to get out of it. That's logical.
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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #46

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 pm Stalin's leaving religion for atheism is yet another example of that "into the fire" deconversion. He should have remained in the seminary.
It seems patently obvious that being in the seminary did absolutely nothing for him. Perhaps they actually managed to shape the individual he became.
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #47

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pm As usual, you are attempting to generalise from limited examples. You are creating very limited and specific scenarios in order to make sure you are right.
I'm not generalizing but am using actual real-life examples to illustrate my point.

By the way, I've noticed that many of the religious hate to be criticized and complain about being "generalized." It's a persecution complex that is not exclusive to the religious, apparently.
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pmIf the situation you are in stinks, religious or otherwise, you do what you can to get out of it. That's logical.
So would you jump into the lake to get out of the rain? You would if you were consistent.

Another ill often brought on by religion is the refusal to face basic facts and use common sense when a sacred dogma appears to be jeopardized. We see yet another ill that atheists are not immune to.
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:16 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 pm Stalin's leaving religion for atheism is yet another example of that "into the fire" deconversion. He should have remained in the seminary.
It seems patently obvious that being in the seminary did absolutely nothing for him. Perhaps they actually managed to shape the individual he became.
It's very possible that Stalin's Christian upbringing had something to do with his nefarious deeds as a dictator, but we do know that no Christian has ever killed millions of people. Stalin, the atheist, did kill millions of people. Whatever murderous ways he may have been taught in the seminary were not cured when he became an atheist.

So to answer my own question for debate, no, atheism very often does not cure any of the supposed ills of religion.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #48

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:56 pm
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pm As usual, you are attempting to generalise from limited examples. You are creating very limited and specific scenarios in order to make sure you are right.
I'm not generalizing but am using actual real-life examples to illustrate my point.
If the example does not serve to generalise it is irrelevant. There are always exceptions and outliers.
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pmIf the situation you are in stinks, religious or otherwise, you do what you can to get out of it. That's logical.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:56 pm So would you jump into the lake to get out of the rain? You would if you were consistent.
:shock: You can't be serious.
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:16 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 pm Stalin's leaving religion for atheism is yet another example of that "into the fire" deconversion. He should have remained in the seminary.
It seems patently obvious that being in the seminary did absolutely nothing for him. Perhaps they actually managed to shape the individual he became.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:56 pm It's very possible that Stalin's Christian upbringing had something to do with his nefarious deeds as a dictator, but we do know that no Christian has ever killed millions of people. Stalin, the atheist, did kill millions of people. Whatever murderous ways he may have been taught in the seminary were not cured when he became an atheist.
Did Stalin personally kill millions? It doesn't matter because Christians have killed millions, unless you are going to call No True Christian on that. Are we to regard Yahweh as a Christian? I seem to recall he killed off most of the planet in a fit if pique.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:56 pm So to answer my own question for debate, no, atheism very often does not cure any of the supposed ills of religion.
Atheism is not a cure. It is a position held where a person does not believe in the existence of gods. That's it. What are the ills of religion that you might expect atheism to cure?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #49

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:41 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:56 pm
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pm As usual, you are attempting to generalise from limited examples. You are creating very limited and specific scenarios in order to make sure you are right.
I'm not generalizing but am using actual real-life examples to illustrate my point.
If the example does not serve to generalise it is irrelevant. There are always exceptions and outliers.
brunumb wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:14 pmIf the situation you are in stinks, religious or otherwise, you do what you can to get out of it. That's logical.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:56 pm So would you jump into the lake to get out of the rain? You would if you were consistent.
:shock: You can't be serious.
Amazing rejoinder there. I think you just invented a new fallacy: Argumentum ad Improper Smiley.

I'll do my best to explain it to you:

Being in the rain is a bad situation because it will get you all wet.
Jumping into the lake will get you out of the rain.
Being in the lake is wetter than being in the rain.
Your conclusion: Go ahead and jump into the lake because you insist that you must get out of a bad situation, in this case, the rain.

Personally, I'd stay in the rain. Yes, it's bad to get all wet in the rain, but I realize it's wetter in the lake. So if some people get "rained on" as Christians, then their becoming atheists won't do them any good if they end up in the lake.
brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:41 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:56 pm It's very possible that Stalin's Christian upbringing had something to do with his nefarious deeds as a dictator, but we do know that no Christian has ever killed millions of people. Stalin, the atheist, did kill millions of people. Whatever murderous ways he may have been taught in the seminary were not cured when he became an atheist.
Did Stalin personally kill millions? It doesn't matter because Christians have killed millions, unless you are going to call No True Christian on that. Are we to regard Yahweh as a Christian? I seem to recall he killed off most of the planet in a fit if pique.
It appears that you missed my point entirely (maybe you were still trying to figure out why it's bad to jump into a lake to get out of the rain). Yes, many people have been killed by Christians, but I'm not comparing the violence of Christians to the violence of atheists. I tried to explain that Stalin's becoming an atheist did him no apparent good, and in particular it did not free him from the tendency of some religious people to become violent. Stalin was far, far more violent as an atheist than he ever was as a Christian. He went out of the rain, and into the lake.

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Re: Does atheism "cure" the supposed ills of religion?

Post #50

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:09 pm I'll do my best to explain it to you:

Being in the rain is a bad situation because it will get you all wet.
Jumping into the lake will get you out of the rain.
Being in the lake is wetter than being in the rain.
Your conclusion: Go ahead and jump into the lake because you insist that you must get out of a bad situation, in this case, the rain.

Personally, I'd stay in the rain. Yes, it's bad to get all wet in the rain, but I realize it's wetter in the lake. So if some people get "rained on" as Christians, then their becoming atheists won't do them any good if they end up in the lake.
No need to explain it to me, I understand. It's just a stupid example. You have managed to equate standing in the rain with being in an abusive relationship.

You don't become an atheist to escape from the ills of Christianity. When you realise that there is no God, you automatically become an atheist by definition. Some atheists prefer to live in the Christian closet in order to avoid rejection, shunning and the loss of family and friends. So, having to live a lie is one of the ills of Christianity. Very sad.

Stalin was clearly not a good person. How should becoming an atheist have cured that?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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