Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

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nobspeople
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Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

So, it's morally wrong to get the J&J vaccine due to a cell line from an abortion being used in its production, but only if there's none other vaccines available now, for Catholics.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/clarity-cath ... 09541.html

Shouldn't they get standing strong in their convictions and letting God protect them for doing the right thing?
For discussion:
1) Is this hypocritical?
Why or why not?

2) If it's bad for reason XYZ, isn't it still bad if it's the only vaccine available? Does God waver on what's good or bad?

3) Or is this yet another way of religion and religious beliefs evolving based on and along side of society?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #11

Post by historia »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:43 pm
1) Is this hypocritical?
I don't think so. Sometimes in life you have to choose between two competing goods -- or, conversely, between the lesser of two evils -- and that seems to be what is at play here.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:43 pm
2) If it's bad for reason XYZ, isn't it still bad if it's the only vaccine available?
Yes, but not getting vaccinated is also bad. Not only does it put you at risk, but it also puts your family and neighbors at risk. This would appear to be choosing the lesser of two evils, then.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:43 pm
3) Or is this yet another way of religion and religious beliefs evolving based on and along side of society?
Religions and cultures are always evolving. I'm not sure how this example is particularly illustrative of that, however.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:43 pm
Shouldn't they get standing strong in their convictions and letting God protect them for doing the right thing?
Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- say, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #12

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to historia in post #12]
Sometimes in life you have to choose between two competing goods -- or, conversely, between the lesser of two evils -- and that seems to be what is at play here.
What are the two evils at play here, just to clarify for my benefit?
Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- say, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
If Catholics believe in Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I would think they could use that to show God will (or can, his will be done as they say) protect them. Though, it could also be said that God will only protect them when it benefits him, not the individual people.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #13

Post by bjs1 »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- say, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
If Catholics believe in Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I would think they could use that to show God will (or can, his will be done as they say) protect them. Though, it could also be said that God will only protect them when it benefits him, not the individual people.
I find them mention of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego at this point interesting.

Daniel 3:16-18 says:
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

This does point to God being able to save people from dangerous circumstances, but explicitly contradicts the idea that one should do good with expectation of Divine intervention, or that doing good should be contingent on God’s future intervention.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #14

Post by William »

bjs1 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:55 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- say, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
If Catholics believe in Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I would think they could use that to show God will (or can, his will be done as they say) protect them. Though, it could also be said that God will only protect them when it benefits him, not the individual people.
I find them mention of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego at this point interesting.

Daniel 3:16-18 says:
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

This does point to God being able to save people from dangerous circumstances, but explicitly contradicts the idea that one should do good with expectation of Divine intervention, or that doing good should be contingent on God’s future intervention.
That reminds me of this;

Image

It is not a solution cutting off the unsightly, but in reforming it.

Anti-theists get so unsightly in their interpretation of The Creator [as interpreted by Christians in most cases hereabouts] they want it cut down completely...

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #15

Post by nobspeople »

William wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:13 pm
bjs1 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:55 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- say, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
If Catholics believe in Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I would think they could use that to show God will (or can, his will be done as they say) protect them. Though, it could also be said that God will only protect them when it benefits him, not the individual people.
I find them mention of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego at this point interesting.

Daniel 3:16-18 says:
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

This does point to God being able to save people from dangerous circumstances, but explicitly contradicts the idea that one should do good with expectation of Divine intervention, or that doing good should be contingent on God’s future intervention.
That reminds me of this;

Image

It is not a solution cutting off the unsightly, but in reforming it.

Anti-theists get so unsightly in their interpretation of The Creator [as interpreted by Christians in most cases hereabouts] they want it cut down completely...
Sometimes, when it's forced on others, the 'others' retaliate. This means, in some cases, attacking the opposing side in various way. Other times, it's simply disagreeing, sometimes for a good reason, sometimes not, other times for no reason. And guess what? And all are fine reasons!
Why?
Because you and I don't answer for them. They do. It's their responsibility to live their lives and, if something exists that judges them, they are judged according to their decisions.

Many times, those who believe in something fervently, see disagreement as attacks; they kick and scream and cry and make fools of themselves because someone simply disagrees. It's juvenile and speaks to a lack of respect and faith IMO.
But this is a passing thought brought about by your post.

To the point of M, S & A, the story means, to many, 'If you're doing the right thing, God will protect you'. There are whole religious sects devoted to this concept, with varying degrees of success admittedly. But successfulness doesn't equate totally with correctness here.

So, some would think (right or wrongly, but again, that's not up for us to claim), that if a vaccine is good for them, and others, even if it's from an establishment that does 'less than Godly things' (though what a 'Godly thing' is is up for debate depending on what part of the bible you reference), God would protect them. 'Would' being the optimal word here. Assuming, that is, it's God's will.
There is a whole school of thought that God's will is 'thinning the heard' and this is a means to achieve that. If true, those destined to die will do so, according to God's will, vaccine or no.

But it makes me wonder, looking beyond this whole COVID mess, what companies believers would or wouldn't support if they knew the company owners, what the company donates to or what activities the company participates in.

I remember when Sea World was owned by Anheuser Busch (might still be I don't know as this has been many years ago) and how some religious people paid for entrance, not knowing they profited a company that manufactures alcohol which, as some believers think, is sinful. When they found out, some protested (too little too late?) and others didn't care. So it seems, based on this example, it's entirely possible for believers to pick-n-choose what to be involved in depending not on the 'right or wrong' approach, but how it benefits them, personally.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #16

Post by historia »

nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
historia wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Sometimes in life you have to choose between two competing goods -- or, conversely, between the lesser of two evils -- and that seems to be what is at play here.
What are the two evils at play here, just to clarify for my benefit?
Abortion (albeit indirectly) and COVID-19.
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
historia wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- say, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
If Catholics believe in Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I would think they could use that to show God will (or can, his will be done as they say) protect them.
This doesn't answer my question. The fact that you personally think story X in the Bible means Y doesn't, in turn, mean Roman Catholics believe Y.

So, again: Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be a definitive source -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #17

Post by nobspeople »

historia wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:30 pm
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
historia wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Sometimes in life you have to choose between two competing goods -- or, conversely, between the lesser of two evils -- and that seems to be what is at play here.
What are the two evils at play here, just to clarify for my benefit?
Abortion (albeit indirectly) and COVID-19.
nobspeople wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
historia wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:06 pm
Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- say, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
If Catholics believe in Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I would think they could use that to show God will (or can, his will be done as they say) protect them.
This doesn't answer my question. The fact that you personally think story X in the Bible means Y doesn't, in turn, mean Roman Catholics believe Y.

So, again: Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be a definitive source -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
Which is why I said "If Catholics believe in Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego". Not being a Catholic personally (though some in my family are, though (again) some of them are from South America and their beliefs tend to differ from North American Catholics as they're more superstitious than North American Catholics, as well as less strict within their religion) I don't claim to know why they believe exactly nor how they see specific stories.
Religion is a funny thing: two people in the same household holding the same beliefs can see the same story to mean different things.
That said, some family Catholics have held fast to the fact that God protects them. What stories or passages they reference I don't know as we've never discussed it past them making such claims. Which is where, partially, my interest in this topic stems.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #18

Post by benchwarmer »

historia wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:30 pm So, again: Where in Roman Catholic doctrine -- the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be a definitive source -- can one find the idea that God will protect Christians from harm for "doing the right thing"?
It seems the Catechism does mention protection, though "doing the right thing" seems to have no bearing. Not sure if that is what you are after.

If angels count:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P1A.HTM#1CZ
352 The Church venerates the angels who help her on her earthly pilgrimage and protect every human being.
This seems a bit more direct though:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_PA7.HTM#QC
2815 This petition embodies all the others. Like the six petitions that follow, it is fulfilled by the prayer of Christ. Prayer to our Father is our prayer, if it is prayed in the name of Jesus.84 In his priestly prayer, Jesus asks: "Holy Father, protect in your name those whom you have given me."85

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Re: Catholics: It's OK to get Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine – if it's the only one available

Post #19

Post by historia »

benchwarmer wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:35 pm
It seems the Catechism does mention protection, though "doing the right thing" seems to have no bearing. Not sure if that is what you are after.
Not really. Neither of the two sections you cite here, nor any of the others that mention protection (and related terms) say that God will protect you from earthly harm for "doing the right thing."

Moreover, the sections on martyrdom (e.g., 2473) -- which is, by definition, a believer receiving harm up to and including death precisely for doing the right thing -- contravenes such a notion.

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