Is Satan The Real God?

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Is Satan The Real God?

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.

It's commonly claimed that god is a pretty good guy: He:

knows everything…
is all-powerful…
is ever-present…
is sovereign…
is holy…
is absolute truth…
is righteous…
is just…
is love…
is merciful…
is faithful…
never changing

A partial list I'm sure, taken from HERE


Not exactly certain what all of these things are, and some will probably differ depending on whom you ask, but they all seem to be good attributes, and no doubt make him worthy of worship, but on reading about some of the other things he has done:


Sending Bears to Murder Children for making fu of a bald man (4 Kings 2:23-24)

Turning Lot's Wife to Salt for breaking a rule she didn't know existed (Genesis 19:26)

Hating Ugly People (Leviticus 21:17-24)

Committing So Much Genocide (many verses)

Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children (Genesis 22:1-12)

Killing Egyptian Babies (Numbers 16:41-49)

Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies (Genesis 38:1-10)

Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet (Judges 14:1-19)

Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them (Numbers 16:1-49)

Everything He Did to Job (Job 1)

Condoning Slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46)

(Also a partial list)



one has to wonder just what kind of guy is running the show. A loving and benevolent god certainly wouldn't deceive people by doing dastardly things. Why would he? But a dastardly god, say one with the scruples of Satan who does a lot of deceitful and harmful things, could well try to deceive people into thinking he is good by occasionally doing the right a proper thing. So, where does this leave us? As I see it "the god of Abraham" reveals himself as more of an evil god (just to note, he does admit to creating evil) than a good god. In which case, it's far more likely that "Satan" is running the show.


What do you think?


.

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #21

Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:19 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:19 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:07 pmIt's all-powerful. It can do whatever it wants and define that into goodness and benevolence.
Nah, that's what we do, whether heads of religions interpreting sacred text or bums begging at the corner of your local Walmart. I, for instance, define the god of Abraham's condoning of slavery as none-good. Even despicable. Not to say god can't decide what he does is goodness, but his decision is just one among millions.
Are you suggesting that an all-powerful being lacks the power to declare his actions good and make that true?

He snaps his fingers and we all wake up one day, and in addition to the normal definitions of benevolent, there's one more definition... "...any action done by the all-powerful being God."

Can't he do that if he's all-powerful? And can't he do that without altering the dictionary if he wishes, and then the dictionary is just wrong?
Please read my last sentence.
Miles wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:19 pmSure it is. Assuming you mean different than the rule bound morality of religion, secular moral systems are amenable to modification, and that's what's so cool about secular morality. And as an excellent example, while Biblical morality continues to hold that homosexual activity between men is immoral and worthy of killing each, secular society has moved beyond such barbaric notions and by and large embraced gays and their life style.
I didn't mean that secular morality can't change; I meant that people are good because of what they are, not what they do. One example I like to cite is the old movie Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. The old version, not the new. Wonka tells all the children that they can consume anything in this room. The fat kid proceeds to do so and gets punished, supposedly for drinking from the chocolate river, but I know the truth: He is bad because he is fat. He is not bad because of anything he did.
Then it all comes down to where one chooses to place blame or approval; the act or the actor.


A. Is killing people without sufficient reason good or bad?

B. Is a person who does such a thing good or bad?


.

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #22

Post by Purple Knight »

Miles wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:36 pmPlease read my last sentence.
The one about how you can choose to define good and evil too? Or how anyone can? Yes, anyone can make the attempt, but if there is a being that can do literally anything, it can simply snap its fingers and make you wrong. Then, after it does that, you simply are wrong and it is correct. Are you suggesting it can't? If so it's not all-powerful.

I am saying... it can use its power... its infinite power... to make your definition of benevolence wrong, and its own definition of benevolence correct.

We may get into a discussion about omnipotence and logic and which trumps which, but I wouldn't mind that.

Basically, let's say Jafar kicks somebody. He then picks up the magic lamp. He summons the genie. He makes a wish.

"Genie, I wish for the act of kicking that lowly fellow there that I have just done to have been benevolent."

Does that wish just fizzle? Does Genie legit not have that power? Let's say for the purposes of the scenario that Jafar doesn't want the fellow changed so that he likes being kicked, and Genie will not intentionally twist this wish.
Miles wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:36 pmThen it all comes down to where one chooses to place blame or approval; the act or the actor.


A. Is killing people without sufficient reason good or bad?

B. Is a person who does such a thing good or bad?
I have observed people and my answer, based on that, is the actor absolutely. Though no one will tell you this.

If the actor is good, the reason will become sufficient, no matter what that reason is. If the actor is evil, no justification will ever be enough, killing is always wrong no matter what.

Yes I have observed this in religious people but I have also observed it from people in general.

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #23

Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:38 pm ...
2 Kings 2:23-24 ERV
...
24 Elisha looked back and saw them. He asked the Lord to cause bad things to happen to them. Then two bears came out of the forest and attacked the boys. There were 42 boys ripped apart by the bears...
That “easy to read” version is interesting, sounds almost like some atheists would have done it. I think the older versions with word “curse” is more accurate. Still, none of them says God sent the bears. It is possible for example that God just didn’t protect them anymore, which opened the chance for the bears to do what they did.

However, I think it is also possible that God kills people who are unrighteous. And in this case, I think the real cause was that the people were evil and unrighteous.
Miles wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:38 pm... Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of the sky.[/i]
Genesis 19:24

And why would she turn into a block of salt? Is this something that commonly, or even uncommonly, happens to people? Nope. In fact it goes against everything we know about chemistry, physics, biology, and nature at large. So what in the world could make such a thing happen? I vote for god. Why? Because at the time he was "working" in the area and seriously involved in bringing terror down upon the town and its folk. Now if you have another candidate in mind, please share.

And FYI, Here's the context, including the stuff god was up to. ...

...
26 Lot’s wife was following behind him and looked back at the city. When she did, she became a block of salt.[/indent]
...
By what I know, there still can be found lot of results of that. Everyone who would have stayed there, would have had the same fate. It was stupid from the Lot’s wife to not go away as God had told.

And how it was possible. Bible tells that there rained brimstone and fire, which I think means there was some kind of meteor shower that had brimstone, which means also sulfur, which could explain also the fire. Sulfates are salts that are formed with sulfur. That is why, if Lot’s wife was turned into salt, it was probably sulfate salt. Interesting thing is that on that area there has been found gypsum, which is calcium sulphate. And it could bee formed when there is limestone and burning sulfur. When that rain came down, it apparently caused some kind of dust cloud or almost like pyroclastic flow that occurs generally in volcanic eruption. And if person was too close to it, it would have covered the person and it could have looked like salt pillar, in this case gypsum pillar. The area has also lot of common salt, which could have formed a salt cloud that covered everything that was there. I think book The Exodus case by Dr. Lennart Möller explains and shows evidence for this very well. Here are few images of the sulfur balls that can be found from the area.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sulfur+balls+ ... iax=images

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #24

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:38 am That “easy to read” version is interesting, sounds almost like some atheists would have done it. I think the older versions with word “curse” is more accurate. Still, none of them says God sent the bears. It is possible for example that God just didn’t protect them anymore, which opened the chance for the bears to do what they did.

However, I think it is also possible that God kills people who are unrighteous. And in this case, I think the real cause was that the people were evil and unrighteous.
Just keep making it up as you go along. As long as it fits with your interpretation and reading between the lines, it must be right.
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #25

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:38 am Bible tells that there rained brimstone and fire, which I think means there was some kind of meteor shower that had brimstone, which means also sulfur, which could explain also the fire. Sulfates are salts that are formed with sulfur. That is why, if Lot’s wife was turned into salt, it was probably sulfate salt. Interesting thing is that on that area there has been found gypsum, which is calcium sulphate. And it could bee formed when there is limestone and burning sulfur. When that rain came down, it apparently caused some kind of dust cloud or almost like pyroclastic flow that occurs generally in volcanic eruption. And if person was too close to it, it would have covered the person and it could have looked like salt pillar, in this case gypsum pillar.
Meteor shower and pyroclastic flow! With all that cataclysmic activity going on, simply turning around would not have made any difference. Everyone would have been consumed, not just Lot's wife. It's all just embellished fiction anyway.
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #26

Post by William »

When it is given to human beings the idea of 'God'[g00d] and the idea of 'Devil' [e\/il] and the activities of those beings overlap - are superimposed over each other, one has to look for reasons as to why this is the case, because clearly humans were not born knowing good from evil, so the confusion human beings have about the subject at least has its source there and the consequence of that ignorance allows for the overlaps [atrocities] to occur.
The solution would be to remove all overlaps, but this is easier said than done. And actual resistance to doing so often comes - not with ignorance - but with willful ignorance, so perhaps the best place to start is there.

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #27

Post by William »

[Replying to brunumb in post #26]

Is there really any point in going over the details of supposed actions of YHWH one by one in order to tick the 'good' or 'evil' box and determine if YHWH is Satan or not?

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #28

Post by nobspeople »

Miles wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:52 pm .

It's commonly claimed that god is a pretty good guy: He:

knows everything…
is all-powerful…
is ever-present…
is sovereign…
is holy…
is absolute truth…
is righteous…
is just…
is love…
is merciful…
is faithful…
never changing

A partial list I'm sure, taken from HERE


Not exactly certain what all of these things are, and some will probably differ depending on whom you ask, but they all seem to be good attributes, and no doubt make him worthy of worship, but on reading about some of the other things he has done:


Sending Bears to Murder Children for making fu of a bald man (4 Kings 2:23-24)

Turning Lot's Wife to Salt for breaking a rule she didn't know existed (Genesis 19:26)

Hating Ugly People (Leviticus 21:17-24)

Committing So Much Genocide (many verses)

Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children (Genesis 22:1-12)

Killing Egyptian Babies (Numbers 16:41-49)

Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies (Genesis 38:1-10)

Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet (Judges 14:1-19)

Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them (Numbers 16:1-49)

Everything He Did to Job (Job 1)

Condoning Slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46)

(Also a partial list)



one has to wonder just what kind of guy is running the show. A loving and benevolent god certainly wouldn't deceive people by doing dastardly things. Why would he? But a dastardly god, say one with the scruples of Satan who does a lot of deceitful and harmful things, could well try to deceive people into thinking he is good by occasionally doing the right a proper thing. So, where does this leave us? As I see it "the god of Abraham" reveals himself as more of an evil god (just to note, he does admit to creating evil) than a good god. In which case, it's far more likely that "Satan" is running the show.


What do you think?


.
In regards of Satan (evil) vs. God (good), is does seem that God is absent a lot more in life than otherwise. One has to wonder why?
At the least, it seems God prefers some people over others, based on their lives and how their lives are going. I know I know - it's not about the here-n-now but about eternity. Which is all well and good but the here-n-now is relevant to those in the here-n-now. So maybe God doesn't care about that?
At the worst, God's given up (and justifiably so IMO) on the human race and it letting it 'run its course'.

If Satan is in charge, then he's either as powerful as God or God is allowing him do what he's doing. I don't find either of those options comforting in any way. But then again, I'm not 'a slave' to God and his 'ways'.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #29

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:54 am ... turning around would not have made any difference...
Turning around means you stop, and then you probably don’t have enough time to go far enough from the problem. And obviously at some point there is a line where person would be safe. If they were near it, short stop could have been crucial.

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Re: Is Satan The Real God?

Post #30

Post by benchwarmer »

1213 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:25 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:54 am ... turning around would not have made any difference...
Turning around means you stop, and then you probably don’t have enough time to go far enough from the problem. And obviously at some point there is a line where person would be safe. If they were near it, short stop could have been crucial.
This sounds like a theory from someone who hasn't read their Bible very closely (bolding mine):

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
18 But Lot said to them, “No, my lords,please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”

21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar.)

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
The order of events is:

Lot and family flee to Zoar.
After reaching Zoar, the destruction begins.
Lot's wife looks back.

Perhaps one shouldn't insert their own story, but read the one in scripture instead? Are there not warnings about adding to scripture? Do us atheists have to point those out for you as well?

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