Are atheists afraid of God?

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Paul of Tarsus
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Are atheists afraid of God?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #221

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:38 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:48 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:32 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:32 am
I suppose that's where the old saying comes from: There are no atheists in foxholes.
There are plenty of them in spite of that warn out myth...
Why did the myth originate?
Why do you perpetuate it when it is known to be false? The answer to that question may help you answer yours.
Why did the myth originate? I think the obvious answer is that the fear of death that combatants experience in foxholes makes them unlikely to remain atheists if they had been atheists. Once the emotional trauma is removed, those "temporary theists" may return to atheism. Of course, the atheist's atheism may remain the whole time while theism arises only very briefly. In such cases, those atheists will experience cognitive dissonance their atheism clashing with their theism.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #222

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:03 pm
Very good! As should now be clear, it is possible for a person to hold the two following contradictory beliefs:

1. There is no (are no) God(s).
2. There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.
If one of the contradictory beliefs a person holds is that, "There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.", they are not an atheist.

If a person is an atheist, that person may fear the possibility that God will judge them post death for their unbelief.
If a person fears, "the possibility that God will judge them post death for their unbelief.", they are not an atheist.


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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #223

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:18 pm
Why did the myth originate? I think the obvious answer is that the fear of death that combatants experience in foxholes makes them unlikely to remain atheists if they had been atheists. Once the emotional trauma is removed, those "temporary theists" may return to atheism. Of course, the atheist's atheism may remain the whole time while theism arises only very briefly. In such cases, those atheists will experience cognitive dissonance their atheism clashing with their theism.
Let's check out that reality of what soldiers dying in foxholes cry out for:

A Young Warrior’s Last Thought is for Mother

’I heard somewhere,’ Jeff said, ‘that soldiers dying on the battlefield cry out for their mothers. People walking through the carnage at Normandy heard grown men calling out ‘Mommy!’ He shook his head. ‘Calling not for their girlfriends or wives, but for their mothers.’

Decades later, Normandy survivors attest to still hearing such cries. As emotional D-Day veteran Frank Devito noted in a 2014 interview with Tom Brokaw commemorating the 70th anniversary of the Normandy invasion, “You know there’s a fallacy people think that when a man is dying. They don’t ask for God. The last word they say before they die is ‘Momma.’”

https://www.breitbart.com/national-secu ... or-mother/
So the question remains, why do people perpetuate this false myth that there are no atheists in foxholes. According to this eyewitness testimony, it sounds like there are no theists in foxholes.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #224

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:20 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:03 pm
Very good! As should now be clear, it is possible for a person to hold the two following contradictory beliefs:

1. There is no (are no) God(s).
2. There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.
If one of the contradictory beliefs a person holds is that, "There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.", they are not an atheist.
Do you know any examples of theists who say there is no God?

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #225

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:35 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:20 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:03 pm
Very good! As should now be clear, it is possible for a person to hold the two following contradictory beliefs:

1. There is no (are no) God(s).
2. There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.
If one of the contradictory beliefs a person holds is that, "There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.", they are not an atheist.
Do you know any examples of theists who say there is no God?
I've already dealt with this strawman:
Tcg wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:46 am
I'm not sure how you came to assigning me with the idea that "some theists think that God doesn't exist" given that I've not stated anything like that. Fighting a strawman does not address the facts presented.

Image


Tcg
Another attempt to use it results in the same failure as your first attempt.


Tcg

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #226

Post by Kylie »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:32 am
Kylie wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:15 am*Looks at herself, having been raised an atheist with no religious education whatsoever.*

Yeah, I've never cried out to God in difficult times, and believe me I've been through some shocking points.
Have you ever thought you were close to death? I've documented a case of an atheist who cried out to God when he thought he was close to dying. It's important to understand that he was an atheist "in thought" which is to say that he did not think that God exists. He based that conclusion on reason and realizing that there was no evidence he knew of that was convincing. However, his feelings turned out to be different. When he thought he was close to death he feared death, and that fear caused him to cry out to God.

I suppose that's where the old saying comes from: There are no atheists in foxholes.

Image
The idea that there are no atheists in foxholes is foolish. And your suggestion that atheists will turn to God in times of crisis because deep down they really know God exists or something is laughable. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes. https://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #227

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Kylie wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:04 amThe idea that there are no atheists in foxholes is foolish. And your suggestion that atheists will turn to God in times of crisis because deep down they really know God exists or something is laughable. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes.
Let's just say that there are few atheists in foxholes. I see that some of the atheists here have managed to dig up some examples of atheists in foxholes to assure themselves.

But the actual frequency of atheists in foxholes doesn't really matter. As long as at least one atheist in a foxhole lost his atheism at least temporarily, then my point has been demonstrated to be true: Atheists can be and sometimes are afraid of God.

In conclusion, I'd say that your post above is very dogmatic asserting without a shred of evidence that atheists cannot have at least some theistic belief. It completely ignores all the reasoning and evidence I've posted on this thread that it is entirely possible for an atheist to be afraid of God. The fundamentalist Christians I've debated use the same kind of rhetoric denying any and all reasoning that can be mustered against their faith. In fact, I've had Christians assert that my logic is "foolish," and like you, they just leave it at that.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #228

Post by William »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #221]
As should now be clear, it is possible for a person to hold the two following contradictory beliefs:

1. There is no (are no) God(s).
2. There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.
Sure - and clearly I am not debating it is not the case. What I have attempted to show you is that it works better the other way around. The other way around fits with the description of the personality you have used to try and make your claim about atheism and atheists.
The person could very well have been an atheist calling out to God; the phenomenon of cognitive dissonance guarantees that possibility.
On the contrary. If the person might have been an anti theist, then I could agree with it being that the anti theist succumbed to his fear of a god, and that perhaps the act of repentance in regard to that could be called "cognitive dissonance" but as you continue to resist understanding the position of atheism, your subsequent arguments built upon the foundation of the false premise, mean that these too, can only also be false.
If you want to still insist he's a theist, then that's your call, of course.
It seems likely from the description given that the man was an anti-theist who eventually succumbed to the irrational fear of a particular image of The Eternal Creator. This in itself is not surprising because often anti-theists choose that position because their focus is upon resisting this particular image of a god which subsequently transfers onto all images of The Eternal Creator which humans have created for themselves to worship.

And sure, an anti-theist is seen as an "atheist" but has also shifted from the position of atheism [lacking belief in gods] to that of actively being in conflict with theists - especially with theists who believe in fearful images of gods.
So in the most pure sense, an atheist is someone who only lacks belief in gods. Likewise a theist in the most pure sense is someone who does not lack belief in gods.
All else are sub-positions branching off of those positions.

So it could be agreed that "some Atheists positions allow for fear of gods and of death" while atheism itself is a position which cannot fear gods because - staying true to that position cancels out any necessity to hold fear of gods.
Thus as soon as someone shifts from the position, they become something other than what the position actually is.

Perhaps what your friend was, was not actually an atheist so much as an agnostic atheist.

One could then ask the question ""Are agonistic atheists able to become afraid of god" which would be far better than the leading question which was asked.
Which is probably the main reason this thread has continued...because the question asked was a leading question which immediate set the course in which the thread would develop.
If you choose to do so, then you are calling a person who only once for a brief time believed in God in the last thirty-four years a theist! That "theist" sees no reason to believe in any Gods and has several reasons to conclude that God almost certainly does not exist.
As pointed out, once I figured out what you have been up to, clearly the person was an agnostic atheist who decided to succumb to fear of death and what might be awaiting him in the next phase by making sure that he made some attempt at consoling the god image that Christian and other type theists have seeded into the world for that purpose.

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #229

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:17 am
But the actual frequency of atheists in foxholes doesn't really matter. As long as at least one atheist in a foxhole lost his atheism at least temporarily, then my point has been demonstrated to be true: Atheists can be and sometimes are afraid of God.
You haven't established that, "at least one atheist in a foxhole lost his atheism at least temporarily." Conjecture does not establish fact. Verifiable evidence does. Your point has not been demonstrated as true.

Beyond that, if this imaginary person "lost his atheism", they wouldn't be an atheist. Once again you are using an example of a theist in another failed attempt to support your claim that "Atheists can be and sometimes are afraid of God."

A third problem is that if a individual cried out to God for help expecting a benevolent response, this would be an example of an individual trusting God, not fearing it.


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To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?

Post #230

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

William wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:46 pm [Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #221]
As should now be clear, it is possible for a person to hold the two following contradictory beliefs:

1. There is no (are no) God(s).
2. There is a God, and I'm afraid of him.
Sure - and clearly I am not debating it is not the case. What I have attempted to show you is that it works better the other way around. The other way around fits with the description of the personality you have used to try and make your claim about atheism and atheists.
While I don't what you mean by "works better the other way around," it's good to see that you finally concede that I'm right.
The person could very well have been an atheist calling out to God; the phenomenon of cognitive dissonance guarantees that possibility.
On the contrary. If the person might have been an anti theist, then I could agree with it being that the anti theist succumbed to his fear of a god, and that perhaps the act of repentance in regard to that could be called "cognitive dissonance"...
Antitheists are atheists, so to arbitrarily call my suicidal-atheist friend an antitheist makes no difference to the point you just got done conceding: A genuine atheist can call out to God fearing God.
...but as you continue to resist understanding the position of atheism, your subsequent arguments built upon the foundation of the false premise, mean that these too, can only also be false.
I already proved you wrong on the "false premise" nonsense. I posted a definition from the Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy that includes a definition of atheism that differs from your definition. Please stop making that same error now that you've been corrected. There is no one absolutely correct definition for atheism or atheist.
So it could be agreed that "some Atheists positions allow for fear of gods and of death" while atheism itself is a position which cannot fear gods because - staying true to that position cancels out any necessity to hold fear of gods.
You're contradicting yourself here. If some atheist "positions" allow for fear of God, and they can, then atheism cannot describe a state of mind in which it's impossible to fear God.
Perhaps what your friend was, was not actually an atheist so much as an agnostic atheist.
An agnostic atheist is a person who does not believe in God but isn't sure that God doesn't exist. My friend was sure God does not exist, or at least he was sure until he tried to take his own life.
If you choose to do so, then you are calling a person who only once for a brief time believed in God in the last thirty-four years a theist! That "theist" sees no reason to believe in any Gods and has several reasons to conclude that God almost certainly does not exist.
As pointed out, once I figured out what you have been up to, clearly the person was an agnostic atheist who decided to succumb to fear of death and what might be awaiting him in the next phase by making sure that he made some attempt at consoling the god image that Christian and other type theists have seeded into the world for that purpose.
You sound so suspicious. I'm not trying to hurt you if that's what you're afraid of. Yes, truth might hurt, but it's a hurt we can usually recover from.

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