Are atheists afraid of God?

[Paul of Tarsus]

In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.

[William]

[Replying to Tcg in post #251]

That certainly could be the case. It would include a rather sad view of the creator though.

False as well by my reckoning when observing the creation does not give me feelings of sadness, even though it can and does hurt...it is temporary for that...scary god otoh promises and eternal torture which doesn't add up as a realistic reflection of any being capable of creating this universe...I will go with the evidence...re that idea..

One simply remains a theist until one has actually becomes an atheist.

I think that is true. I remember going through a transition period of sorts, but there was never a time where I was both a theist and an atheist.

I think this is where Paul of Tarsus conflates...

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #251]

That certainly could be the case. It would include a rather sad view of the creator though.

False as well by my reckoning when observing the creation does not give me feelings of sadness, even though it can and does hurt...it is temporary for that...scary god otoh promises and eternal torture which doesn't add up as a realistic reflection of any being capable of creating this universe...I will go with the evidence...re that idea..

Would it then be safe to say that you as a theist don't fear god? I ask because as a theist I never feared god and certainly as an atheist, I don't either.

One simply remains a theist until one has actually becomes an atheist.

I think that is true. I remember going through a transition period of sorts, but there was never a time where I was both a theist and an atheist.

I think this is where Paul of Tarsus conflates...

Yes. I was once a theist with doubts. I am now an atheist with none. This doesn't prove me right, but is an accurate reflection of this atheist's journey.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to Tcg in post #251]

That certainly could be the case. It would include a rather sad view of the creator though.

False as well by my reckoning when observing the creation does not give me feelings of sadness, even though it can and does hurt...it is temporary for that...scary god otoh promises and eternal torture which doesn't add up as a realistic reflection of any being capable of creating this universe...I will go with the evidence...re that idea..

Would it then be safe to say that you as a theist don't fear god? I ask because as a theist I never feared god and certainly as an atheist, I don't either.

No I do not fear The Creator. Nor do I fear death.

One simply remains a theist until one has actually becomes an atheist.

I think that is true. I remember going through a transition period of sorts, but there was never a time where I was both a theist and an atheist.

I think this is where Paul of Tarsus conflates...

Yes. I was once a theist with doubts. I am now an atheist with none. This doesn't prove me right, but is an accurate reflection of this atheist's journey.

I would far rather honesty regardless of position, as ultimately that is what bridges said differences as the positions are not really something which have to be so dissimilar that it creates a problem.

[Tcg]

No I do not fear The Creator. Nor do I fear death.

I don't either. Of course for very different reasons. Regardless, we share a lack of fear of God.

I would far rather honesty regardless of position, as ultimately that is what bridges said differences as the positions are not really something which have to be so dissimilar that it creates a problem.

Especially not in this phase of existence. If there is an existence after this one, I'll be be very pleasantly surprised. Well, assuming it isn't worse than this one. That would be a very unpleasant surprise.


Tcg

[Paul of Tarsus]

Let's examine the definition of atheist - "One who lacks belief in god/gods." One who has belief in god/gods doesn't lack belief in god/gods. I've explained this reality many times. I have no intention of "winning" an argument, but rather to present the facts involved. And I have.

So "no true atheist" can believe in God. The tact here is to arbitrarily choose a definition that defines what you want to believe is true as true. It's a textbook example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Not at all. If one were to claim that No True Scotsman can drink Budweiser (yuk), that would be an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. If one were to claim that No True Scotsman was born in, reared, and lived their whole life in Amarillo Texas, we have a statement of fact.

A true Scotsman can be born and bred in Amarillo Texas if his Scottish parents emigrated to Amarillo Texas. A better example is that no true Scotsman can be a monkey: Scotsmen are men and not monkeys.

So I agree with your point that the No True Scotsman fallacy does not always apply. It only applies to claims in which a person arbitrarily chooses a definition to "prove" a point. For instance, if a Christian apologist defends Christianity against charges that some Christians have done evil, and that apologist defines a Christian as a person who cannot do evil, then that apologist has committed the No True Scotsman fallacy. The mistake in reasoning is that the apologist wants to slip out of a sticky situation by defining that difficulty away.

And as I have already pointed out, you are trying to define away the problem of atheists sometimes displaying theistic belief. You evidently want to prove your case by insisting that no true atheist can believe in God, and you are right not by reasoning or evidence but are right by the definition you have chosen that fits your presumption.

Speaking of definitions, here's what Webster's says:

atheist - a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

If we choose this definition over your definition, then we see some wiggle room for theistic belief on the part of an atheist.

[William]

No I do not fear The Creator. Nor do I fear death.

I don't either. Of course for very different reasons. Regardless, we share a lack of fear of God.

Indeed. Our lack of fear of death is different because one need not fear ''not being alive" forevermore. [your position] and 'being alive forevermore" [my position]

Same with lack of fear of "God" - you because you have no belief in gods so it would be silly to fear something one thinks does not exist.
Me because, I do not think if a creator of this universe exists, that one need fear such a being because it makes little sense in doing so...but fear is still a known aspect of being alive in this universe, so must have some input in the scheme of things - why should I not have some fear re The Creator, since an obviously scary thing has been created - something we know can and does scare us.
So - in part at least - I do not fear The Creator because I have learned not to fear the creation...

I would far rather honesty regardless of position, as ultimately that is what bridges said differences as the positions are not really something which have to be so dissimilar that it creates a problem.

Especially not in this phase of existence. If there is an existence after this one, I'll be be very pleasantly surprised. Well, assuming it isn't worse than this one. That would be a very unpleasant surprise.

It is a somewhat awkward position to be in, not knowing either way, and believing either one way or the other.

But the solution to that is most likely in how one holds oneself, as far as I can tell. Less of the expectations and more of the take things as they present, regardless of whether they are unpleasant or not. Just be ones honest self.

The difference in our positions is that I won't be surprised in that it turned out there was a next phase, because I expected as much would be the case...whether that also gives me an advantage in how quickly I can adapt to any 'surprises' remains to be seen...not that I think my 'advantage' is somehow a sign of being 'better' but more because it might be helpful to others who are less prepared.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Back in Post #227:

But the actual frequency of atheists in foxholes doesn't really matter. As long as at least one atheist in a foxhole lost his atheism at least temporarily, then my point has been demonstrated to be true: Atheists can be and sometimes are afraid of God.

A bit dispiriting to see the debate hasn’t progressed very far from that point.

I feel good about the debate and that I've successfully argued that some atheists at some times can be afraid of God.

If we’re supposedly debating the question which is the title of the thread (“Are atheists afraid of God?”), then it might have been helpful to state whether an answer in the general case was sufficient. Either that, or re-state the question, perhaps on one of these lines:

Q: Is it possible for an atheist to fear God?

Q: Does a fear of God (even temporarily) mean someone can’t be an atheist?

Q: Can anyone ‘fear’ a god without believing in it?

As it stands, stating “Atheists can be and sometimes are afraid of God” (My bold) is not in any way answering the actual question of “Are atheists afraid of God?” Unless clarified, the bolded ‘Are’ could be inferred to mean ‘Are all atheists secretly afraid of God’, rather than ‘In general, are the vast majority of atheists secretly or unconsciously afraid of God, or not?’.

Thanks for the advice, but I don't believe anything you're saying here is difficult to figure out. If there is any confusion about the OP, all anybody needs to do is ask some simple questions about it. When I composed the OP, I assumed that the other members are intelligent enough to understand not to take the question for debate too literally. I think the real trouble was their willful reluctance to answer the question for debate directly and sensibly.

Again, I suggest that the wording of the OP’s question doesn’t sufficiently clarify the debate scope. “Atheists cannot have at least some theistic belief.” is (in my view) actually a more promising topic, as it avoids the perception of unfairly ‘trapping’ debaters.

Why would anybody fear being trapped by a question? If a person is honest and sensible and innocent, then they cannot be trapped by sincerely answering a question. Truth can only trap the guilty.

[William]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #258]

[Diagoras]

I feel good about the debate and that I've successfully argued that some atheists at some times can be afraid of God.

Perhaps others feel the bar was set rather low.

When I composed the OP, I assumed that the other members are intelligent enough to understand not to take the question for debate too literally.

Would it have been more helpful to state the level of 'literalness' up front, perhaps? Thus removing the need to make assumptions.

I think the real trouble was their willful reluctance to answer the question for debate directly and sensibly.

Can you conceive of a way in which you might have contributed to the problem? Debaters are being asked to be intelligent enough to spot that the question's 'not too literal', but then to answer directly and sensibly. My impression is of slightly mixed messages there.

Why would anybody fear being trapped by a question? If a person is honest and sensible and innocent, then they cannot be trapped by sincerely answering a question. Truth can only trap the guilty.

Then sincerely answer me this: Why do you put up so many straw man arguments?

[brunumb]

When I composed the OP, I assumed that the other members are intelligent enough to understand not to take the question for debate too literally.

Now that's an ad hominem if ever there was one.