Are atheists afraid of God?

[Paul of Tarsus]

In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.

[benchwarmer]

I pick neither. i.e. no fear. The fact that you think there has to be fear involved tells me your religion has nothing for me.

That wasn't an option. But ok, fine; make "no fear" an option, and take your hell sentence with a fearless face.

You are assuming there is a "hell sentence" to be had. I fail to see how a loving, caring god could submit someone to eternal torture for making choices based on limited information in a short amount of time (given that even 100 years is short compared to eternity).

Adding fear to the mix to try and convince people of your ideology is a huge red flag for me. Why is fear needed if facts can be brought to bear? Is this god not capable of providing whatever facts and the ability to process those facts for each human?

It's one thing to undeniably observe a god who clearly and unambiguously tells you what is required. It's another when all we get are confused, contradictory, mixed messages from proponents of various religions.

I'm not 'rebelling' against something that I clearly know about and have no excuse. I'm being intellectually honest based on the information I currently have and refuse to peddle what appear to be lies in the name of some religious texts.

If I'm wrong, then any god in charge would know why I'm making the decisions I am. If this god is ruthless and basically says "so what, you should have been able to read between the lines" then it doesn't really matter now does it? A large percentage of theists (maybe 100%) are also wrong by definition since even they are not in agreement on basic things.

If there is a god and it is reasonable and actually caring, then I have nothing to fear. If it wanted me to be convinced of it's presence, surely it would have supplied ME with the evidence I require.

The fact that you exist, in a universe which also exist.....those two facts should be enough to convince any reasonable human being of a Creator.

Yet these 2 facts do not convince me and I am reasonable as far as I can ascertain. Ergo your argument is defeated.

As mentioned somewhere else, positing a creator is just shifting the problem. In fact, it creates a never ending dilemma. i.e. if a creator is necessary to create intelligence, then the creator must also be created. And so on. Or is the creator you have in mind not intelligent?

The fact that it doesn't seems to be the flaw of the unreasonable person, and not the Creator.

Flaw clearly pointed out above.

It would not be my fault I am currently unconvinced, but it's fault. Torturing me for being intellectually honest seems to be in contradiction to a reasonable, loving god.

That will be a conversation between you and God. I don't know what will happen, but my guess is that on judgement day, God will "play the tape" of every time the Holy Spirit tapped you on the shoulder, and the mere core of your being (spirit, consciousness) ignored the tap...time and time again.

If this were true and this god actually knows me, it also knows how hard and what kind of tap will be required.

As usual, the blame always seems to shift to the limited human. The god character never seems to be at fault even though it holds all the power and knows everything. It supposedly created everything, is good, loving, caring, etc. but can't seem to provide the right convincing evidence for every single human to observe. Somehow only a lucky few get the (often wildly contradictory to each other) evidence that their particular god character is the 'real' one.

Btw, since I am a Bible believing Christian, I can only go by what the Bible says...and the Bible says that God will show himself to those who earnestly seek him (Heb 11:6).

Been there, bought the t-shirt. The trouble is, when actually examining the origins of the Bible and comparing the various texts, it completely falls apart as a divinely inspired work. Instead of finding resolutions to those problems, further seeking only found deeper and deeper problems.

When it became clear the Bible is simply the work of humans (and much of it poorly thought out at that), I decided to stop following that false god.

After all, if there is a real god, I would not want to insult it by continuing to believe what has been made clear to me as false.

So, either you aren't earnestly seeking him, or when God took it upon himself to communicate with you, you ignored him.

Back to this. It has to be the humans fault. The limited creation that can only do with what it has available using it's supposedly god given intellect.

This argument is tired and insulting.

If I'm standing in front of god, it knows why I've made my decisions. I made them based on what I observed. I did NOT make them based on fear mongering from religious propogandists regardless of how much fear they tried to instill.

Who do you think this god will be more proud of? Someone who failed to bow to fear and used their god given intellect to sniff out what appeared to be false claims, or someone who decided to use fear to coerce someone else to make their decisions? I would rather be in my shoes, even if I was wrong.

[Dimmesdale]

When it comes to fear of God I am myself rather double-minded.

On the one hand, who wouldn't be at least in fervent awe of a being who can give and take away life? Who can, at the very least, tear you down to size if you choose the path of selfish violence? Such a being must be respected, if one has any self-respect herself.

On the other hand there is a flavor of fear that is ignoble, that leads not to greater respect and veneration, but to a cringey, pathetic and miserable wretch-consciousness. This is the particular odor I get from most fundamentalist brands of Christianity. Whereas healthy fear should be the emblem of a self-respecting human, this type of fear actually diminishes self-respect. It is a kind of fear that is servile in the worst sense. A type of fear that springs from weakness, not self-awareness.

If atheists fear God, in some sense or other, perhaps it matters which flavor of fear they are soaking themselves in? Perhaps it matters what type of consciousness they have that brings this fear out?

Personally, I think it is the consciousness that should be looked at -- which is the actual pointer towards truth. I don't think the second type of fear is true to reality, because it springs from a low-grade consciousness.....

[Kylie]

In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.

And people who are afraid of Darth Vader tell themselves that Star Wars is just a story.

[blackstart]

Of course it is possible that I am able to fear God therefore I would never use your words "Since you don't believe in God, then you conclude you cannot fear God".

If you now say you can readily understand that you can fear God even though you are an atheist, then why did you say earlier that you find it hard to understand how you can fear a God you don't believe in? Do you now understand how you can be afraid of God even though you are an atheist? I hope you do understand now, and I hope I helped you to understand.

So I see I'm getting my point across. Not only can atheists be afraid of God, but people in general can have conflicting thoughts and feelings. The human psyche is not perfect, and in particular it is not perfectly consistent. We should keep that fact in mind as we debate Christianity and apologetics.

Nope, I stand by exactly what I said in post 47. In that post I gave clear connected reasons as to why I don't have any fear of God and, because of those reasons, I, personally, find it hard to understand why I should have any fear of God. Hopefully you now understand the important difference between 'don't' and 'can't'(which has been the main focus of this correspondence) which may help you in future to look more closely at the words you are responding to. If not, there is little more I can do to enlighten you so, as I see it, it becomes rather a pointless exercise.

Please answer my question: If you now say you can readily understand that you can fear God even though you are an atheist, then why did you say earlier that you find it hard to understand how you can fear a God you don't believe in?

Contradicting oneself is nothing to be ashamed of. We all do it. We also change our minds about issues as we learn, and learning is something to be proud of.

I'll happily answer the question, although I would have thought the answer would have been obvious, so, at the risk of repeating myself, here goes:

1) I don't fear God, and because of the the two reasons I gave you, I can't see why I should.

2) The idea that I can't fear God came from you when you said, "Since you don't believe in God, then you conclude you cannot fear God."

3) 'Cannot', according to the Oxford English Dictionary, means not to be able. As fear is an emotion it is entirely possible (although unlikely) that I may give the idea of God some emotional significance. One does not have to believe in Him to do this. As I see it therefore, I have the potential for being afraid of Him. Therefore I am able to be afraid of Him.

4) 'Don't' simply means not carrying out the action of being afraid, which is what I am doing for the reasons given.

5) Therefore the idea that I cannot fear god is entirely inappropriate.

6) If you had originally inquired as to whether I can't, rather than assuming that I can't, all this could have been avoided.

[Paul of Tarsus]

I don't fear God, and because of the the two reasons I gave you, I can't see why I should.

This statement of yours conflicts with

Of course it is quite possible that someone may feel fear when considering the idea of God for a variety of reasons.

from your post 52. So can you fear God or not? If you realize that a person (including an atheist) can fear God, then why don't you understand how you can fear God?

Here's a general outline of your conflicting statements:

1. I can't understand that A is possible.
2. I can understand why A is possible.

I don't mean to belabor this issue, but it is an example of the conflict in the thoughts and feelings of atheists.

[Diagoras]

My reading of the first part of your opening argument is that you agree rational atheists don’t fear God. Perhaps winning the prize for quickest debate resolution ever!

What I said in the OP was just my own point of view. The length of the thread should indicate that other people on the board have their opinions.

I note that you have expressed an opinion, and that others have done the same.

Besides, we run into the difficulty of categorizing people as "irrational." As I've explained, even supposedly rational people can at times act on their emotions rather than their thinking. So even very "rational" atheists might mentally break down under extreme stress and fear God.

We can agree that people in general exhibit both rational and irrational thinking to various degrees and at various times. Acting on one’s emotions rather than critical thinking can be (but not always is) irrational. So given your specific example of a rational atheist under extreme stress, I find it very hard to see how you can make any general conclusion about atheists and fear of god. All we can reasonably say is that one particular hypothetical atheist acted irrationally on one particular occasion.

I see you object to the insult of being lumped in with all other atheists. Your terror of such a fate is unnecessary <...>

You probably missed off a ‘winking smiley’ there. It’s ok, I’m not in any way insulted by being lumped in with ‘all the other atheists’.

[Tcg]

I don't fear God, and because of the the two reasons I gave you, I can't see why I should.

This statement of yours conflicts with

Of course it is quite possible that someone may feel fear when considering the idea of God for a variety of reasons.

from your post 52. So can you fear God or not? If you realize that a person (including an atheist) can fear God, then why don't you understand how you can fear God?

Here's a general outline of your conflicting statements:

1. I can't understand that A is possible.
2. I can understand why A is possible.

I don't mean to belabor this issue, but it is an example of the conflict in the thoughts and feelings of atheists.

No, this is an example of misrepresenting what another has posted:

"I don't fear God..."

"...it is quite possible that someone may feel fear..."

There is absolutely no conflict here. The poster clearly states that they don't fear God, but understands why some may feel fear. Your "general outline" is clearly flawed.

This isn't "an example of the conflict in the thoughts and feelings of atheists." but rather a clear example of the misrepresentation of one atheist's comment.


Tcg

[Paul of Tarsus]

No, this is an example of misrepresenting what another has posted:

"I don't fear God..."

The misrepresentation is yours. Here's what blackstart actually said back in post 47:

...I find it hard to understand why I am supposed to be afraid of a God which a) I have no belief in, and b) plays no significant part in my life(apart from cultural influences, that is). I can only state that I don't have any feelings of fear at all as regards God. I can't see why I should.

blackstart later contradicted himself when he said he can understand how an atheist can be afraid of God.

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to benchwarmer in post #92]

I see potential in you. I'd like to have a private convo with you pertaining to these subjects. PM me if interested.

[Kylie]

I don't fear God, and because of the the two reasons I gave you, I can't see why I should.

This statement of yours conflicts with

Of course it is quite possible that someone may feel fear when considering the idea of God for a variety of reasons.

from your post 52. So can you fear God or not? If you realize that a person (including an atheist) can fear God, then why don't you understand how you can fear God?

Here's a general outline of your conflicting statements:

1. I can't understand that A is possible.
2. I can understand why A is possible.

I don't mean to belabor this issue, but it is an example of the conflict in the thoughts and feelings of atheists.

I don't see how the two statements are in conflict.

Blackstart said that they do not fear God, yet they can understand why someone (even an atheist) might feel fear when considering God.

That makes perfect sense to me, in just the same way that I can say that I can understand why some people might not like the taste of Vegemite, even though I don't have an aversion to the taste of Vegemite.