Are atheists afraid of God?

[Paul of Tarsus]

In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."

Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.

[Paul of Tarsus]

...if this imaginary person "lost his atheism", they wouldn't be an atheist.

If I were to describe your main fallacy, it is your arguing by assertion. To demonstrate your case, you must come up with a sound argument that atheists cannot believe in or fear God. Yet all you've done is to keep saying that you are right. Your logic goes this way:

Atheists can never have any belief in God.
Why?
Because atheists can never have belief in God!

You "win" the argument by defining atheist in such a way as to rule out the truth of opposing viewpoints. Like any other kind of fundamentalism, your beliefs are based on unyielding and simplistic absolutes. Such beliefs are very prone to perpetuating error because they are invulnerable to correction.

Personally, I prefer to be corrected rather than continue making errors.

[Tcg]

...if this imaginary person "lost his atheism", they wouldn't be an atheist.

If I were to describe your main fallacy, it is your arguing by assertion. To demonstrate your case, you must come up with a sound argument that atheists cannot believe in or fear God. Yet all you've done is to keep saying that you are right. Your logic goes this way:

Atheists can never have any belief in God.
Why?
Because atheists can never have belief in God!

You "win" the argument by defining atheist in such a way as to rule out the truth of opposing viewpoints. Like any other kind of fundamentalism, your beliefs are based on unyielding and simplistic absolutes. Such beliefs are very prone to perpetuating error because they are invulnerable to correction.

Personally, I prefer to be corrected rather than continue making errors.

Let's examine the definition of atheist - "One who lacks belief in god/gods." One who has belief in god/gods doesn't lack belief in god/gods. I've explained this reality many times. I have no intention of "winning" an argument, but rather to present the facts involved. And I have.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #231]

There is no one absolutely correct definition for atheism or atheist.

Then automatically we can understand that your question "Are atheists afraid of God?" is meaningless.

then atheism cannot describe a state of mind in which it's impossible to fear God.

It depends solely on which definition you are using...if the definition of atheism is "A position whereby someone's state of mind lacks belief in gods" then it might be a state of mind in which it is impossibly to fear gods

My friend was sure God does not exist, or at least he was sure until he tried to take his own life.

Your friend wasn't even mentioned in the OP - nor have I seen it mentioned as to why attempting suicide suddenly made him fearful of a scary god. Was he afraid of every god or just the scary one you mention in the OP?

As pointed out, once I figured out what you have been up to, clearly the person was an agnostic atheist who decided to succumb to fear of death and what might be awaiting him in the next phase by making sure that he made some attempt at consoling the god image that Christian and other type theists have seeded into the world for that purpose.

You sound so suspicious. I'm not trying to hurt you if that's what you're afraid of. Yes, truth might hurt, but it's a hurt we can usually recover from.

I do not understand the response to my argument you give here. What has your assumptions about my state of mind got to do with anything.

My statement remains valid. Your OP question was based upon faulty content to begin with. As such, the posited was not aligned with the premise.

You would have been better off asking "Are some atheists afraid of The Scary God?" and presented you suicidal friend as an example of one who proved to be.

But then the thread would already by now be sinking into obscurity through disuse...

[Tcg]

You would have been better off asking "Are some atheists afraid of The Scary God?" and presented you suicidal friend as an example of one who proved to be.

Except of course his suicidal "friend" wasn't afraid of God, but rather turning to it for salvation from death. Given that he was calling out to God for salvation, he wasn't an atheist.

This proposed scenario is one of a theist turning to a God they consider to be benevolent. The proper question would be, "Do some theists call out to a God they consider nice enough to help them in time of trouble?" The answer would be that it's very likely. It's not really an earth shattering revelation though.


Tcg

[William]

You would have been better off asking "Are some atheists afraid of The Scary God?" and presented you suicidal friend as an example of one who proved to be.

Except of course his suicidal "friend" wasn't afraid of God, but rather turning to it for salvation from death.

Really? I though he was afraid of death because of the scary god he believed he might encounter after he died...was his salvation therefore being saved from fear?

Given that he was calling out to God for salvation, he wasn't an atheist.

I suppose that depends on the exact moment an atheist becomes a theist...before or after the 'calling out to god' - and there is no detail accompanying the story of the suicidal personality as to what evidence made him see that he was saved? If it wasn't about evidence, then he likely wasn't an atheist.

This proposed scenario is one of a theist turning to a God they consider to be benevolent. The proper question would be, "Do some theists call out to a God they consider nice enough to help them in time of trouble?" The answer would be that it's very likely. It's not really an earth shattering revelation though.

But of course, the OP does not go down that "benevolent god path". The god in the OP is "Scary" so the suicidal personality was calling out to be saved, because of fear rather than because of some joyous revelation. The call went out to the scary idea of god not the benevolent idea of god.

[Tcg]

You would have been better off asking "Are some atheists afraid of The Scary God?" and presented you suicidal friend as an example of one who proved to be.

Except of course his suicidal "friend" wasn't afraid of God, but rather turning to it for salvation from death.

Really? I though he was afraid of death because of the scary god he believed he might encounter after he died...was his salvation therefore being saved from fear?

When he thought he was close to death he feared death, and that fear caused him to cry out to God.

No fear of God mentioned here, only fear of death. Why would he cry out to God for salvation if he feared God?

Given that he was calling out to God for salvation, he wasn't an atheist.

I suppose that depends on the exact moment an atheist becomes a theist...before or after the 'calling out to god' - and there is no detail accompanying the story of the suicidal personality as to what evidence made him see that he was saved? If it wasn't about evidence, then he likely wasn't an atheist.

Becomes a theist? There is nothing presented here to assume he wasn't a theist during the whole event.

This proposed scenario is one of a theist turning to a God they consider to be benevolent. The proper question would be, "Do some theists call out to a God they consider nice enough to help them in time of trouble?" The answer would be that it's very likely. It's not really an earth shattering revelation though.

But of course, the OP does not go down that "benevolent god path". The god in the OP is "Scary" so the suicidal personality was calling out to be saved, because of fear rather than because of some joyous revelation. The call went out to the scary idea of god not the benevolent idea of god.

I am discussing the story added later. The theist who feared death so he called out to God for salvation from death. The OP does not include the story of the suicidal "friend."


Tcg

[Kylie]

The idea that there are no atheists in foxholes is foolish. And your suggestion that atheists will turn to God in times of crisis because deep down they really know God exists or something is laughable. There are plenty of atheists in foxholes.

Let's just say that there are few atheists in foxholes. I see that some of the atheists here have managed to dig up some examples of atheists in foxholes to assure themselves.

Please tell me how you have determined that the number of atheists in foxholes is small, and that most atheists will cease being atheists when in a foxhole.

But the actual frequency of atheists in foxholes doesn't really matter. As long as at least one atheist in a foxhole lost his atheism at least temporarily, then my point has been demonstrated to be true: Atheists can be and sometimes are afraid of God.

But it hardly supports the pattern of behaviour you are suggesting exists.

In conclusion, I'd say that your post above is very dogmatic asserting without a shred of evidence that atheists cannot have at least some theistic belief. It completely ignores all the reasoning and evidence I've posted on this thread that it is entirely possible for an atheist to be afraid of God. The fundamentalist Christians I've debated use the same kind of rhetoric denying any and all reasoning that can be mustered against their faith. In fact, I've had Christians assert that my logic is "foolish," and like you, they just leave it at that.

Your reasoning and evidence was nothing but anecdote. Sorry to tell you, but using anecdote as evidence is indeed foolish.

[William]

You would have been better off asking "Are some atheists afraid of The Scary God?" and presented you suicidal friend as an example of one who proved to be.

Except of course his suicidal "friend" wasn't afraid of God, but rather turning to it for salvation from death.

Really? I though he was afraid of death because of the scary god he believed he might encounter after he died...was his salvation therefore being saved from fear?

When he thought he was close to death he feared death, and that fear caused him to cry out to God.

No fear of God mentioned here, only fear of death.

oic...so therefore one lacking or having "fear of death" cannot be an 'atheist'?

Why would he cry out to God for salvation if he feared God?

It would depend on which god he was afraid of. "God" generally is referring to the Christian god [by the name] so it can get confusing...but if it was death he was fearing in relation to the Christian God he was expecting to be judged by after dying...

And an atheist can have belief in afterlife without either fearing it and still while lacking belief in gods....

Given that he was calling out to God for salvation, he wasn't an atheist.

I suppose that depends on the exact moment an atheist becomes a theist...before or after the 'calling out to god' - and there is no detail accompanying the story of the suicidal personality as to what evidence made him see that he was saved? If it wasn't about evidence, then he likely wasn't an atheist.

Becomes a theist? There is nothing presented here to assume he wasn't a theist during the whole event.

Yes - that is what I am saying - there is not enough detail about this suicidal personality which gives any indication holding the position of an atheist, apart from the claim that he had always been an atheist...I am trying to pinpoint the moment he became a theist...was it before having a fear of death or after?

This proposed scenario is one of a theist turning to a God they consider to be benevolent. The proper question would be, "Do some theists call out to a God they consider nice enough to help them in time of trouble?" The answer would be that it's very likely. It's not really an earth shattering revelation though.

But of course, the OP does not go down that "benevolent god path". The god in the OP is "Scary" so the suicidal personality was calling out to be saved, because of fear rather than because of some joyous revelation. The call went out to the scary idea of god not the benevolent idea of god.

I am discussing the story added later. The theist who feared death so he called out to God for salvation from death. The OP does not include the story of the suicidal "friend."

Yes I am aware of that. I am trying to discover why this suicidal friend story and the benevolent god is related to the OP...it appears to be a shift in goalposts as some after-thought which has the appearance of being able to be tied into the OP and answer the OP question.

But it doesn't...hence my confusion...

[Tcg]

You would have been better off asking "Are some atheists afraid of The Scary God?" and presented you suicidal friend as an example of one who proved to be.

Except of course his suicidal "friend" wasn't afraid of God, but rather turning to it for salvation from death.

Really? I though he was afraid of death because of the scary god he believed he might encounter after he died...was his salvation therefore being saved from fear?

When he thought he was close to death he feared death, and that fear caused him to cry out to God.

No fear of God mentioned here, only fear of death.

oic...so therefore one lacking or having "fear of death" cannot be an 'atheist'?

Nothing I have stated claims that or even suggests it. We were discussing the fear of death versus the fear of God.

Why would he cry out to God for salvation if he feared God?

It would depend on which god he was afraid of. "God" generally is referring to the Christian god [by the name] so it can get confusing...but if it was death he was fearing in relation to the Christian God he was expecting to be judged by after dying...

Nothing in the tale suggests that.

And an atheist can have belief in afterlife without either fearing it and still while lacking belief in gods....

Sure, why not.

Given that he was calling out to God for salvation, he wasn't an atheist.

I suppose that depends on the exact moment an atheist becomes a theist...before or after the 'calling out to god' - and there is no detail accompanying the story of the suicidal personality as to what evidence made him see that he was saved? If it wasn't about evidence, then he likely wasn't an atheist.

Becomes a theist? There is nothing presented here to assume he wasn't a theist during the whole event.

Yes - that is what I am saying - there is not enough detail about this suicidal personality which gives any indication holding the position of an atheist, apart from the claim that he had always been an atheist...I am trying to pinpoint the moment he became a theist...was it before having a fear of death or after?

Noting in the story suggests he had always been an atheist.

This proposed scenario is one of a theist turning to a God they consider to be benevolent. The proper question would be, "Do some theists call out to a God they consider nice enough to help them in time of trouble?" The answer would be that it's very likely. It's not really an earth shattering revelation though.

But of course, the OP does not go down that "benevolent god path". The god in the OP is "Scary" so the suicidal personality was calling out to be saved, because of fear rather than because of some joyous revelation. The call went out to the scary idea of god not the benevolent idea of god.

I am discussing the story added later. The theist who feared death so he called out to God for salvation from death. The OP does not include the story of the suicidal "friend."

Yes I am aware of that. I am trying to discover why this suicidal friend story and the benevolent god is related to the OP...it appears to be a shift in goalposts as some after-thought which has the appearance of being able to be tied into the OP and answer the OP question.

But it doesn't...hence my confusion...

Yes, it is very confusing.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to Tcg in post #240]

oic...so therefore one lacking or having "fear of death" cannot be an 'atheist'?

Nothing I have stated claims that or even suggests it.

Nonetheless, that would be true would it not? One can be an atheist and have a fear of death.

We were discussing the fear of death versus the fear of God.

Precisely. That is why an atheist would not have a fear of gods and be called an 'atheist' but could have a fear of death and still be an atheist.

Noting in the story suggests he had always been an atheist.

Perhaps I am mistaken that in subsequent to the story interaction with Paul of Tarsus, he wrote that the personality had always been an atheist...