In response to Stephen Hawking's quip, "Religion is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," apologist John Lennox said, "And atheism is a fairy story for those afraid of the light."
Do atheists fear that light aka God? I would answer no assuming I knew atheists to be completely sensible and rational in their rejection of theism, but they very often aren't sensible and rational in their unbelief. In this forum, for example, an atheist said he lost his belief in God when he realized that there are different religions. When I tried to explain to him that those conflicting faiths can be explained as some of them getting a real God wrong, well, it did me no good! It's simply illogical to conclude that God doesn't exist because some people disagree about him. His atheism is obviously based on faulty logic. What's odd about these cases involving atheists using poor reasoning to reject God is that those atheists seem quite reasonable otherwise. My guess is that they fear God and wish that he doesn't exist. Atheism is for them a sanctuary from theism and a hope that reality harbors no scary God.
Are atheists afraid of God?
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #71I don't actually believe Yahweh is literally real. But the question for debate with me and benchwarmer was, does the Flying Spaghetti monster and other such fictitious beings, such as Thanos, have JUST AS GOOD A CHANCE of existing as the Bible god? I say no. Because they haven't made any attempt to make themselves known in human affairs to the same extent as the Bible god at least appears to have done. And also, they make no attempt to embody universal principles. Principles that could show they are intimately related with the world. That the world came from them, just like an acorn came from an acorn tree -- and therefore things like love would naturally follow.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:58 amYou are giving credit where none is due. Yahweh hasn't made himself known. The machinations of human beings have created that illusion. A genuine omnipotent all-loving deity would just have to be able to do a way better Job than Yahweh has done. At least it wouldn't have to rely on the endless loopholes and excuses generated by people to account for what are obviously one-sided relationships.Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:23 pm The fact that other claimants to deity haven't been a fraction as successful as the Bible or Quran god, say, shows that they are either powerless to make themselves known (and thus they aren't God in the classical sense - omnipotent), or simply do not care about human beings (thus not all-loving, etc).
Perhaps I am guilty of "argumentum ad populum" to some extent when it comes to mere mortals like Thanos (I assume he was mortal to begin with at least -- haven't really researched the marvel mythos) but when it comes to actual GODS, beings who have the REAL OPPORTUNITY of showing themselves explicitly and garnering worshippers, I think their chance has come and gone. The Abrahamics currently have more or less a monopoly on the God business, at least in the West and Middle East.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #72Actually, I think a deity can be completely self-sufficient, without the "need" for external love, but still be motivated to engage in that love nonetheless. This is because God has an overabundance of love, that spills over in excess. He doesn't "need" us. But, it is like, "why not"? If God created the world he bears some relation to it. Just like a father bears a relation to a son. Naturally, this creates affection. Why wouldn't it? God is different, yes. But that does not eliminate the fact that there is similarity. If there was no similarity between God and creation, creation would never have had its source in God to begin with. Completely unlike things can never be intimately related.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:35 amI don't see why that follows. You are projecting human needs onto a being that is as far removed from being human as is possible. If that deity does want a relationship then doing it from a distance, or hiding, or relying on the imaginations of its subjects is far from having a genuine relationship. You'd think such a being would know how to engage in a true relationship with others.Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:23 pm In my view, if you are a powerful, beneficent deity, you will naturally want to be in relationship with others - whether they are your subjects or companions or anyone else.
I actually think it's the other way around and you are the one projecting human attributes onto God in terms of his relating to us in a "genuine relationship." What is a "genuine relationship" for us is material, palpable, tangible.... God is completely spiritual, so it makes sense that the way he would relate to us would not be in any gross physical fashion.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #73If you now say you can readily understand that you can fear God even though you are an atheist, then why did you say earlier that you find it hard to understand how you can fear a God you don't believe in? Do you now understand how you can be afraid of God even though you are an atheist? I hope you do understand now, and I hope I helped you to understand.blackstart wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:37 amOf course it is possible that I am able to fear God therefore I would never use your words "Since you don't believe in God, then you conclude you cannot fear God".
So I see I'm getting my point across. Not only can atheists be afraid of God, but people in general can have conflicting thoughts and feelings. The human psyche is not perfect, and in particular it is not perfectly consistent. We should keep that fact in mind as we debate Christianity and apologetics.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #74But 'they' is not the gods, rather it is the people promoting their gods of choice. As societies evolved and people got more sophisticated, so did the characteristics of their gods. Gods naturally had to become more personal and less distant in order to appeal to the populace. Actual gods are not really necessary for any of this.Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:57 pm I don't actually believe Yahweh is literally real. But the question for debate with me and benchwarmer was, does the Flying Spaghetti monster and other such fictitious beings, such as Thanos, have JUST AS GOOD A CHANCE of existing as the Bible god? I say no. Because they haven't made any attempt to make themselves known in human affairs to the same extent as the Bible god at least appears to have done. And also, they make no attempt to embody universal principles. Principles that could show they are intimately related with the world. That the world came from them, just like an acorn came from an acorn tree -- and therefore things like love would naturally follow.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #75You are assuming facts not in evidence and using them to justify your position. If this God does have an overabundance of love that spills over in excess, it has not made its way to Earth.Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:34 pm Actually, I think a deity can be completely self-sufficient, without the "need" for external love, but still be motivated to engage in that love nonetheless. This is because God has an overabundance of love, that spills over in excess. He doesn't "need" us.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #76I would say you don't actually know this. How do you know there is no supernatural component? Because of the modern theory that dismisses all gods as human constructs.
In any case, my point stands. That there is an absence of intervention by these fictitious gods. So they do not stand as good a chance as the Bible god, or a more well-established deity, of existing.
Well, that actually proves my point. There is a void then left by these claimants to deity (supplied by humans) which implies they don't exist, are powerless, or don't care about humanity.
The Bible god is still winning in my book. The playing field is nowhere near level.
Last edited by Dimmesdale on Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #77Nope. I am merely responding to your objection that a God must necessarily not have characteristics similar to humans. That's what you assume. I simply point out that your objection is not necessarily true or valid. That's because of that counterexample.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:51 pmYou are assuming facts not in evidence and using them to justify your position. If this God does have an overabundance of love that spills over in excess, it has not made its way to Earth.Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:34 pm Actually, I think a deity can be completely self-sufficient, without the "need" for external love, but still be motivated to engage in that love nonetheless. This is because God has an overabundance of love, that spills over in excess. He doesn't "need" us.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #78That argument works both ways. How do you know that there is a supernatural component? Before Christianity was invented, people could have made the same arguments as you do in regard to their gods. It's really all just a popularity contest. Fashions come and go.Dimmesdale wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:30 pm I would say you don't actually know this. How do you know there is no supernatural component? Because of the modern theory that dismisses all gods as human constructs.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #79If atheists are afraid of God now, wait til judgement day.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of God?
Post #80That's the whole point of this discussion. Atheists aren't afraid of god or if they are, they are not atheists. By definition.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:11 am If atheists are afraid of God now, wait til judgement day.
Now, atheists might say "IF this god was real, I would be afraid", but that is the same as saying "IF Godzilla was real, I would be afraid". i.e. not currently afraid, but would become so if said thing was discovered to be real.
Honestly, I would be way more afraid to be a theist than an atheist if there is a judgement day. At most, one sect of one religion might be correct and spreading the right information about a deity. EVERY other one is wrong and spreading potentially harmful misinformation and asking people to believe on lies.
Which person would you rather be facing your judgement?
a) It was obvious to me based on what information I had available that none of the religious stories are true. I decided to wait for convincing evidence before spreading potential lies even further.
b) I ignored observable science in favor of information in texts written by anonymous authors. I spread my religion to everyone who would listen.
c) These religious texts and these adherents seemed consistent with observation, so I went with it to the best of my ability, willing to change upon finding new evidence.
I would rather be (a) or (c). I currently choose (a) as I have yet to find (c). I definitely would be shaking in my shoes if I was (b).