Trying to be a Christian

Argue for and against Christianity

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Neb
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Trying to be a Christian

Post #1

Post by Neb »

I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.

I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.

Many thanks, Neb.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

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Post by Miles »

.


The first few I read---28 are far too many to go through---appear well thought out, and are common objections that never seem to be successfully addressed, but almost always ignored, which serves as a warning. As for faith, there's nothing one can't take on faith, be it true or false, so it can never serve as a path to truth---one may as well flip a coin. As others have pointed out, faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence. And without evidence a claim has no credibility.


.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #3

Post by William »

Neb wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:12 am I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.

I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.

Many thanks, Neb.
As much as you have obviously thought things through and put in some major effort regarding the points you make in your pdf, you will find that not all Christians believe the same things or interpret the Bible the same way to get the same meanings from it.
Therefore your observations will each be met with support and rejection by various Christians so in that you will not get any help in getting those things to make sense or direct you in where you might be 'going wrong' - the points you have make are points which have been made for over 2000 years and still the non-Christian is no better informed today by Christians, than they have been throughout all that previous time.

The better thing to do would be to use your skills to do the detective work yourself rather than to depend on getting honest answers from those claiming their religion is The Truth.

A good place to start is at the beginning of the mythology...find the holes, the character weaknesses and the contradictions in the storyline...Who Sinned First?

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

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Post by bjs1 »

Neb wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:12 am I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.

I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.

Many thanks, Neb.
My thoughts are similar to what Miles wrote in post 2, though I fall on the other side of the issue. That is, these are common objections and they use wording that is commonly found online. Because they are common objections, the ones I read – 28 was too many – have been successfully answered.

If you are serious about wanting to find faith then I have two possible suggestions. The first, and far better choice, is for you to find pastor/priest/minister in your area who would be willing to sit down with you once a week for several weeks to talk about these objections. If you do not know any ministers, and you live in the USA, then I can help you find someone near you.

The second option, which is not nearly as good, is that I would be willing to enter a head-to-head debate on these where we could go over each one in order. Taking on so many topics with many people commenting just becomes a confused mess. A head-to-head debate would just be your thoughts and mine as we work through these issues one at a time.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

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Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to Neb in post #1]

Is there an order to your sticking points? i.e. are some more bothersome than others to you? You could pick the top 3 and start a separate debate thread for each one.

As an ex Christian, I can only suggest that you look for answers both from within the religion AND from without. i.e. don't confine yourself to only reading the Bible for the answers. A better approach, IMHO, is first research the foundations of the religion. i.e. for the Bible, what the Bible is comprised of and who wrote which pieces of it.

For me, really studying the Bible (not just cherry picked 'Bible studies' from church) is what began my deconversion. Getting viewpoints from both Christians and non Christians alike on any given topic can be very eye opening if you are willing to listen and take the best arguments from all sides.

Basically, don't start with the assumption it's true, but you just don't "get it" yet. Start with the assumption that "you don't know" and see where the data leads you. Someone tells you Jesus did something? Ask how they know that so you can check it out for yourself. Someone tells you Christians believe X? Ask some Christians and see what they really believe.

In short, be open to finding the truth whatever that might be.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #6

Post by Overcomer »

I couldn't open the link. I tried cutting and pasting it, but all I got was a "cannot find" message. Have you deleted the page, Neb? I would be happy to engage with you on the topic as well. The others have made good suggestions re: tackling one topic at a time, starting with the ones you feel represent the greatest stumbling blocks.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

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Post by 1213 »

Neb wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:12 am I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that...
I have understood that saved means one is saved from the judgment that would come because of sin. Disciples of Jesus have the right to forgive sins and I could say your sins are forgiven. And so, you would be saved from the judgment.

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

However, it is not useful, if you after that return/continue in sin. Forgiveness gives a new start, but if there happens no change in your “heart” so that you become righteous, it is not useful. After forgiveness person should repent and give up his wrong ways, as Jesus said:

… "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."
John 8:11

Bible promises eternal life only for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

That is why there must happen change in person so that he is “born anew” and becomes righteous.

… Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

That can happen by the words Jesus declared.

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

And when it happens, it means this:

…Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #8

Post by tam »

Peace to you Neb,
Neb wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:12 am I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.
Just a quick side point before getting to some of your points: If you want to be a disciple of Christ, then you can try following Him, listening to Him, obeying His commands. If you have no faith, and you want faith, then you could ask God to grant you faith, and if you want to know what is true, then you could also ask God to lead you to HIS truth (not man's truth, not religion's truth, rather God's truth). As for being Christian (an anointed one), that is something that Christ chooses; He is the One who makes us Christian. "You did not choose me, but I chose you."

(I can totally understand trying and failing to be a "Christian" - where "Christian" means being a member of the religion and believing what IT says about God - because there is so much that is false in that religion, that does not make sense.)

I digress:
I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.
Point 1: (I'm just taking the first couple sentences from that point)

God is said to be Love(1 John 4:16, John 3:16). But imposing unending,unbearable torture on 98% of humanity is not what most people would call Love.

This problem resolves itself if you understand that there is no such thing as a 'hell' of unending, unbearable torture. The doctrine of 'hell' (which is different depending upon who you ask), is incorrect. You can know this just from the words in your point 1: God is love. Love does not create such a place, knowing that many would go there to be in unending torment for all eternity. So why believe the doctrine of hell (that man created) over the statement that God is love? One of the two is incorrect. Why choose to believe that the false thing is "God is love"?

There are many threads on the forum on this very issue though. I'll post a link to one of those threads (though it contains links to others as well):

viewtopic.php?p=1028604#p1028604


I will try and get to some of your other points (though the understanding that there is no such thing as eternal torment probably answers a few of your other concerns).


Many thanks, Neb.

You're very welcome, and peace to you!

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #9

Post by nobspeople »

Neb wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:12 am I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.

I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.

Many thanks, Neb.
Why do you think you're wrong in your thinking?
Why does the bible and what it's said to say hold superiority over your own, individual thinking?
It seems you want to be shown you're wrong and adjust your thinking to match the 'biblical' thinking. If so, you've already lost the battle, succumbing to what dead men want you to think, as that's the only true fact the bible holds: it was written by men now dead.
Having been Christian for decades, and now no longer, I'd suggest you also look at the writings and teachings of other religions, as well as talking to those who are no longer slaves to Christianity. If, that is, you're truly seeking real, legitimate answers.
Otherwise, there's little need to discuss with other Christians. Christianity is so malleable you can make it say, to you, almost anything you want it to say. That's why there's so many different sects of the same religion.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #10

Post by Goose »

Neb wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:12 am I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.
Hi Neb. I’m not quite sure what you mean here. It sounds like you consider yourself to be a Christian but don’t consider yourself saved?
I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.
You asked where you are going wrong. In my opinion with many of your points it's not so much a case of going wrong per se. But rather a case of not applying the same critical thinking to the critical sticking points themselves.

I looked through your list and decided to tackle (23) and (24) together since it’s Easter and since the resurrection of Jesus is portrayed as the crux of the Christian faith.
23. Jesus’ Resurrection. The earliest known version of Mark (the first gospel) ends with Joseph of Arimathea putting Jesus into a tomb and rolling a stone in front of it. Mary Magdalene saw this. It doesn’t mention any guards. Two days later, Mary M and two other women go to the tomb, worrying about how the three of them will move the stone that one person put there. They see a tomb without Jesus’ body and a man saying that he has risen and gone to Galilee. But the women didn’t say anything to anyone because they were afraid (Mark 16:8). These were the only eyewitnesses of the empty tomb and they didn’t tell anyone, so one wonders where the story came from.
Your first sticking point seems to be the question, where did the story of the women discovering the empty tomb come from if the women who discovered it didn’t tell anyone?

Let’s look at Mark 16:7-8 given the argument that this is where Mark ends.

”7 But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’” 8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.”

I would point out that the context here in the narrative seems to imply the women’s silence was caused by fear. Notice Mark says the women fled from the tomb because “trembling and astonishment had gripped them.” This seems to imply the fear which caused their silence was temporary. In other words, there’s nothing here in the narrative that prevents us from thinking that the women told the story of the empty tomb later once the fear had faded and had possibly been replaced by excitement from the prospect that Jesus had risen. Think of it this way. If you had seen something that made you so afraid you were trembling and speechless would you keep the experience of what you had seen to yourself after the initial fear had faded? I think many people would eventually share the experience, at least with people they trusted. I know I would.

There are several implausible implications of your sticking point. If your sticking point holds then not one of the women said anything later despite the empty tomb and the heavenly messenger declaring Jesus had risen. If your sticking point holds then not one of the women’s fear ever faded enough to allow them to tell the story. If your sticking point holds then the women’s trembling never stopped along with their silence. If your argument holds then not one of the women eventually said anything later despite having been explicitly commanded to do so by a heavenly messenger that had frightened them.
Mark records no post resurrection appearance of Jesus except in the appendix added later (Mark 16:9-20).
This seems to be your second sticking point. It’s true Mark does not elaborate on the details of the appearances. But that objection seems odd in and of itself given the fact Mark explicitly states there will be appearances (16:7).
The later gospels give accounts of the resurrection and appearances, though they differ significantly between themselves.
They differ in the secondary details, yes. But they do not differ in the core of the story that Jesus died, was buried, rose from the dead, and appeared. There's much I could say here but suffice to say that’s how history often comes down to us when reported by independent sources. The core story is consistent but the secondary details are often inconsistent. An example of this is found in the narratives of Julius Caesar’s assassination which differ to the point of outright contradictions in the secondary details.
24. As the four gospels give different and totally incompatible accounts of what happens after Jesus is dead and buried, it would seem that the gospel writers started with some basic report (which might have been no more than the fact that when someone went to the tomb to spice the body, they found the body wasn’t there, as in the original Mark), and added in elaborations to make the story more compelling
That’s a possibility. But I’m not clear on why those elaborations would make the story more compelling. Also you have to explain why the added elaborations have numerous consistencies if each Gospel author was freely and independently adding elaborations. Was it just dumb luck? If the explanation for the consistencies in the elaborations is explained by Matthew and Luke using Mark and John using Mark, Matthew and Luke then you need to explain the inconsistencies. Why would they use each other but contradict each other? If the explanation is that the later author contradicts the previous author to fix the previous author's problematic points then you have to explain why the later author didn't fix all the problematic points of the previous author. Lastly, the “basic report” which dates back to at least Paul relates Jesus’ death, burial, resurrection, and appearances (1 Corinthians 15:3-5). So even if we had to go so far as to concede that the empty tomb story was an outright fabrication we are still left with the core that Jesus died, was buried, rose from the dead, and appeared.

Hope that helps. O:)
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