Trying to be a Christian

Argue for and against Christianity

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Neb
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Trying to be a Christian

Post #1

Post by Neb »

I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.

I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.

Many thanks, Neb.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #11

Post by Dimmesdale »

There seems to me to be a problem with "trying" to be this or that religion.

In a sense, it is wrong, because religion is supposed to bring out the deepest, most innate part of you, the part of your self that is supposed to be most natural.

Why should one over-endeavor to be this or that way if it is not natural to you? It means you are struggling in an unnatural way.

What is the nature of water? To flow.
What is the nature of air? To blow.
What is the nature of electricity? To luminesce.

If you are a Christian, it should come natural to you. Being one should not be a matter of "trying." If you AREN'T one, then no amount of artificial trying will get you there. You are laboring under an illusion in that case, and should seek out a religion that is more natural and not burdensome.

The same can be said for atheism and all other worldviews. If it doesn't fit, you must quit.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #12

Post by bjs1 »

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #12]

Personally, I am less than comfortable with this self-centered approach to life. It ignores truth, moral development, and the complexity of life.

It ignores truth in that the fact that something “fits” for you does not make it true.

It ignores moral development in that something might fit (comfortable, enjoyable, agreeable, etc.) but be morally bankrupt. It is possible for something to “fit” because it appeals to the worst part of us.

It ignores the complexity of life in that worldviews (religions, philosophies, atheism, etc.) paint with broad strokes. When we get to the nuance of individuals all fleshed out worldviews include a fair amount of non-essentials that people might disagree about. A specific worldview might not fit everything you believe at a given moment, but most people evolve as they age and many less central belief change over time. Plus, the fact that someone disagrees with a small portion of a worldview doesn’t mean the view on the whole should be tossed aside.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #13

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Neb wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:12 am I’ve tried for a while to be a Christian. But it seems that, to be saved, I have to have faith and I haven’t managed that. There are a number of things that make it hard for me to believe – things about the Christian story that don’t make sense or that seem wrong.

I have made a list of my sticking points in http://www.et.m1maths.com/Problems.pdf . If any Christian would be kind enough to have a look at any of these and tell me where I’m going wrong, I would be very grateful. Even a response to one problem would be welcome. Please quote the problem number so I know which one you are addressing.

Many thanks, Neb.
That's a lot of material and difficult to respond to in an online discussion board, but let me take a stab at it.

About every problem you pointed out with Christianity is a genuine problem with the faith. God's love appears to be in conflict with his harsh judgment, God must follow certain rules to be judged by us as good, the church endures infighting over doctrine, Christianity had a messy and confused rift from Judaism, the Bible is full of paradoxes and often glorifies cruel violence, there are historical difficulties in both Old and New Testaments, and Christianity is burdened by many other difficulties that you mentioned.

So I don't think you're going wrong anywhere. You are actually right in what you are saying. If you have doubts about Christianity, then it is good that you have doubts. When we doubt, that's our brains telling us that something isn't right, and we better look into the matter. So if you cannot believe some doctrine of the faith, then don't believe it. You'll only harm yourself if you try to believe the unbelievable.

But I get the impression that you don't wish to abandon the Christian faith. If that's the case, then one possible resolution for you is to realize that both the Bible and Christian theology are man-made. The Bible is a book about God written by people--people who were far from perfect. God never authored the Bible or any book. He never needed to. Christian theology is people's attempt to make sense of the mess that men made out of their belief in God. God never told anybody to try to figure him out. People have tried to figure God out, and they didn't do a very good job of it.

So you can still have God if you can come to understand him based on evidence and valid logic. Conclude what is true about God on your own, and if somebody else says something that sounds wrong to you, then it probably is wrong, but don't think that God is responsible for that error.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #14

Post by Dimmesdale »

bjs1 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:48 pm [Replying to Dimmesdale in post #12]

Personally, I am less than comfortable with this self-centered approach to life. It ignores truth, moral development, and the complexity of life.

It ignores truth in that the fact that something “fits” for you does not make it true.

It ignores moral development in that something might fit (comfortable, enjoyable, agreeable, etc.) but be morally bankrupt. It is possible for something to “fit” because it appeals to the worst part of us.

It ignores the complexity of life in that worldviews (religions, philosophies, atheism, etc.) pain with broad strokes. When we get to the nuance of individuals all fleshed out worldviews include a fair amount of non-essentials that people might disagree about. A specific worldview might not fit everything you believe at a given moment, but most people evolve as they age and many less central belief change over time. Plus, the fact that someone disagrees with a small portion of a worldview doesn’t mean the view on the whole should be tossed aside.
Your criticism is a thoughtful one. I will try to respond.

You are right that truth need not cater to our own predilections. But not all truth is the same. In my opinion, spiritual truth is of this quality. It differs from run-of-the-mill "facts" and theories. Spirituality is supposed to lie at the core of one's heart, in my view, and if one is "struggling" with the right conclusion of truth, over-theorizing and whatnot, then one is not being truly spiritual but is trapped in an infinite maze of mostly useless thoughts. To be lost in speculations of the mind is not to live truth in the spiritual sense, in other words. Hence, if one struggles and isn't "sure" of his or her religion, wondering if they are going to hell, etc, oftentimes over a span of years, then something is seriously wrong with the whole enterprise. In that case, I don't believe using "facts" the same way one uses bandaids to cover a serious wound will do any help. The whole approach then is wrong.

In such a case dry theory is not as important as a sincere opening of the heart and receptivity to one's own intuitive sense. That is what it is to be a natural human being in my view.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #15

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Miles wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:07 am .


The first few I read---28 are far too many to go through---appear well thought out, and are common objections that never seem to be successfully addressed, but almost always ignored, which serves as a warning. As for faith, there's nothing one can't take on faith, be it true or false, so it can never serve as a path to truth---one may as well flip a coin. As others have pointed out, faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence. And without evidence a claim has no credibility.


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Those "others" must be atheists who are bent on destroying Christian faith by distorting what it means to have faith. I thought I've already explained to you that while it's possible to have faith without evidence, faith very often accompanies valid reason and evidence. Faith, reason, and evidence are not mutually exclusive. Faith is the trust that one puts in the truth of a conclusion, and that conclusion can be and often is based on good reason and evidence. Faith is necessary because even with the best logic and evidence in the world, you need to place your confidence in that logic and evidence to accept it as establishing a truth.

So now you know what faith really is. Please don't continue to tell people what it isn't.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #16

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:29 pm I thought I've already explained to you that while it's possible to have faith without evidence, faith very often accompanies valid reason and evidence. Faith, reason, and evidence are not mutually exclusive. Faith is the trust that one puts in the truth of a conclusion, and that conclusion can be and often is based on good reason and evidence. Faith is necessary because even with the best logic and evidence in the world, you need to place your confidence in that logic and evidence to accept it as establishing a truth.
All you have really done is confirmed that faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence. If there was indeed any compelling evidence we would not have the plethora of religious beliefs confusing the people of the world. With evidence one does not need faith.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #17

Post by Dimmesdale »

brunumb wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:39 pm If there was indeed any compelling evidence we would not have the plethora of religious beliefs confusing the people of the world. With evidence one does not need faith.
That to me is an empty unproven assertion. How do you know that "plethora of religious belief" is because of a lack of compelling evidence? What if it is due to a whole set of other causes?
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #18

Post by brunumb »

Dimmesdale wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:47 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:39 pm If there was indeed any compelling evidence we would not have the plethora of religious beliefs confusing the people of the world. With evidence one does not need faith.
That to me is an empty unproven assertion. How do you know that "plethora of religious belief" is because of a lack of compelling evidence? What if it is due to a whole set of other causes?
Please explain how there can be compelling evidence for Yahweh and Jesus and Allah and Shiva and Ganesha and Brahma and.........

If there is compelling evidence it should point to one god and one religion. Faith, or belief without evidence, allows one to believe in anything. Surely that is the best explanation for the vast array of gods and religions across the world. Do you have something better?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #19

Post by William »

brunumb wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:05 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:47 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:39 pm If there was indeed any compelling evidence we would not have the plethora of religious beliefs confusing the people of the world. With evidence one does not need faith.
That to me is an empty unproven assertion. How do you know that "plethora of religious belief" is because of a lack of compelling evidence? What if it is due to a whole set of other causes?
Please explain how there can be compelling evidence for Yahweh and Jesus and Allah and Shiva and Ganesha and Brahma and.........

If there is compelling evidence it should point to one god and one religion. Faith, or belief without evidence, allows one to believe in anything. Surely that is the best explanation for the vast array of gods and religions across the world. Do you have something better?
From what I understand, these are simply images of The Creator placed upon the idea of a Creator existing. The images themselves do not represent The Creator but are only believed to do so through faiths.

Therefore having a whole lot of differing and opposing world views on the nature and overall image of The Creator does not in itself prove that The Creator doesn't exist/we are not within a Creation.

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Re: Trying to be a Christian

Post #20

Post by Miles »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:29 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:07 am .


The first few I read---28 are far too many to go through---appear well thought out, and are common objections that never seem to be successfully addressed, but almost always ignored, which serves as a warning. As for faith, there's nothing one can't take on faith, be it true or false, so it can never serve as a path to truth---one may as well flip a coin. As others have pointed out, faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence. And without evidence a claim has no credibility.


.
I thought I've already explained to you that while it's possible to have faith without evidence, faith very often accompanies valid reason and evidence. Faith, reason, and evidence are not mutually exclusive.
And I'm still asking, "so what?" (I believe that's what I asked.)

So, if you have evidence then why are you bothering with faith? Wouldn't you say "I know . . . ." or at least "I trust. . . ."? :wink:

Faith is the trust that one puts in the truth of a conclusion, and that conclusion can be and often is based on good reason and evidence.
Then why not simply call it "trust"? What's with cloaking it in the term "faith"? :wink:

Faith is necessary because even with the best logic and evidence in the world, you need to place your confidence in that logic and evidence to accept it as establishing a truth.
And what would I call that? TRUST.

The problem is that while faith as an equivalent to trust in general is fine, as a synonym to religious trust it becomes an excuse because its referents are seldom if ever supported by reasonable evidence. More likely than not religious faith is driven by the urgency to quell fear, which often enough will grasp at anything, logical or not, to satisfy its needs. Thing is, this lack of good evidence---good reason is entirely too scarce to matter--is its weakness. So, unlike common trust, which develops out of a reasonable assessment of the reverent factors, i.e. good evidence, faith (religious trust) develops out of whatever happens to work, reasonable or not. And this is why others have pointed point out that "faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence." Believers may point to some evidence, but it's seldom ever reasoned or logical. And a good indication of this is the hundreds (thousands?) of denominations that have arisen because none of them can agree on the evidence at hand. It's far too subjective to pin down.

So now you know what faith really is.
So I do. Frantic trust dolled up in religious vernacular.



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