Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

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Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #1

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

Greetings. A couple of years ago, I created a similar thread on the Modal Ontological Argument for the existence of God. It was a fun thread, with some by some interesting exchanges.

I thought we should reexamine the argument and why I feel it is just one of many valid/sound arguments for the existence of God.

The Modal Ontological Argument (MOA), of course, using “modal” logic…and this frame of logic relies heavily on “possible world” semantics. This is the great Alvin Plantiga’s version of it…and it is extremely elegant, I must say.

But lets define some stuff first..

What is a possible world? A possible world (PW) is a complete and consistent way the world is or could have been. In other words, there is a “possible world at which Lebron James wins MVP at least twice in his career”.

What this is saying is that there are a set of circumstances which will allow for the said proposition to be true.

There is also a possible world at which the said proposition will be false (should at the end of his career, he didn't win MVP at least twice).

So, when PW semantics is being used, it is just describing a set of circumstances which may/may not be true (or possible).

That being said, lets distinguish two concepts of truths..


Contingent truth: is a true proposition that could have been false; a contingent falsehood is a false proposition that could have been true. This is sometimes expressed by saying that a contingent proposition is one that is true in some possible worlds and not in others.

For example, the fact that I currently live in the United States is a contingent truth…because there are a set of circumstances at which I could possibly currently live in another country…so where I live is based on a variety of circumstances.

Necessary truth: is a proposition that could not possibly have been false. This can be expressed by saying that a necessary truth is a proposition that is true in every possible world. An example of a truth that many philosophers take to be necessary in this sense is: 2+2 = 4.

Good examples of necessary truths are mathematical, as 2+2=4 in all possible worlds, with no exceptions…making its truth necessary.

Now, we’ve defined possible worlds, we’ve defined the two concepts of truths…now, lets define God..

God, at least in the Christian tradition, has been defined as..

Omnipotent: All powerful
Ominicient: All knowing
Omnipresent: Active and in control everywhere at all times
Eternal: Having no beginning, or end, not depending on anything for its existence. An existence which is..necessary (which means under no circumstance can it cease existing).

For sake of the argument, we call this being a Maximally Great Being (MGB).
Now, the question is; does such a being exists or not?? Which brings forth the argument..

See next post..
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #161

Post by Bust Nak »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:50 pm Hmm. I don't recall making a claim that I expect you (my opponent) to prove that claim. Try again.
What are you talkin about? You asked me to prove that you need to prove your claim. What my expectations are is irrelevant.
You stated I need to prove that I can imagine a MGB. I'd like proof that I need to prove that to you, sir.
Well that wasn't what you typed, hence me asking, was there a typo?
Sure, you can do that, if you want to waste your time.. because I will reject your demonstration, because I am of the opinion that I did prove it...and if you don't like my justifications, then we just have to agree to disagree.
What is and isn't a logical fallacy isn't a matter of opinion. My demonstration is based on logic, in contrast with yours being based on testimony.
I already took the "demonstrate it in some other way" option. If that isn't good enough for you, then I can't help you.

My argument stands..it is possible for a MGB to exist, because the existence of a MGB is conceivable.

Prove it? Because the concept of a MGB is coherent, and no laws of logic are being violated based on the mere concept.
Now prove that the concept a MGB is coherent, and no laws of logic are being violated based on the mere concept without presuming it is possible for a MGB to exist or that the existence of a MGB is conceivable. Last time I asked you to prove that, you said a) it was logical because you can conceive of the MGB, and b) told me prove that it is illogical. a) was a circular argument, and b) shifting your burden.
Yup, I understand the difference. Next.
So why did you ask me to prove something that I never claimed?
Well, you have a false premise with a false conclusion...why wouldn't I think it is invalid?
Because that's not how validity is measured; a false premise with a false conclusion doesn't necessarily mean the argument is invalid.
But, "I am imagining a MGB when I conceive the thought of God". Why are you asking me to prove I can think of something?
Because you made the claim that you can, as support for an argument you presented for debate.
If God manifests himself as a cartoonish, bearded man...that does fit the definition, giving it necessarily existence.
What does that have to do with the cartoonish, bearded man of my imagination?
Irrelevant, because the claim that you did make needs to be proven, which is what I await.
Why even wait? Whether I can prove my claim or not, doesn't stop you from proving your own, does it?

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #162

Post by Bust Nak »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:59 pm Clarification unwarranted. The argument is still fails for previously given reasons.
Then stop bringing new points up, if you are not going to address my counter and fall back to "previously given reasons."
Because existence is possible in this world...and in all possible worlds, this world is included in the bunch. Pretty simple, right? :D
Existence being possible doesn't matter though. My argument does not contradict such a premise, it's still look very much like you didn't read my argument properly.
Because, assuming that "from nothing, nothing comes", existence is necessary.
Looks like a non-sequitur. How do you get from "from nothing, nothing comes" to existence is necessary? Perhaps more to the point, why are you even talking about "existence is possible" if you think you can make the case that existence is necessary?
The argument was doomed from Premise 1.
That doesn't mean the argument is invalid though, even if I grant you that premise 1 is faulty.

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #163

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:26 am Then stop bringing new points up, if you are not going to address my counter and fall back to "previously given reasons."
"Previously given reasons" is enough to demonstrate why your argument fails.

Whether I bring up "new points" to show why the argument fails...or appeal to "previously given reasons" why the argument fails.

The key point to note is; your argument fails.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:26 am
Because existence is possible in this world...and in all possible worlds, this world is included in the bunch. Pretty simple, right? :D
Existence being possible doesn't matter though. My argument does not contradict such a premise, it's still look very much like you didn't read my argument properly.
1) 1. It is possible that nothing what-so-ever exists.

The premise is false. I will advise you to stop trying to give CPR to an argument that is dead.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:26 am Looks like a non-sequitur. How do you get from "from nothing, nothing comes" to existence is necessary? Perhaps more to the point, why are you even talking about "existence is possible" if you think you can make the case that existence is necessary?
We can address how I can easily draw such a conclusion later. First acknowledge that your argument is flawed, and then we can move on to bigger and better things.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:26 am That doesn't mean the argument is invalid though, even if I grant you that premise 1 is faulty.
That is like saying "It doesn't mean X is dead, even if I grant you that X is deceased".

Deceased/dead <----take your pick. I will be fine with whichever you want to call it, whether it be invalid or faulty. :D
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #164

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:50 pm Hmm. I don't recall making a claim that I expect you (my opponent) to prove that claim. Try again.
What are you talkin about? You asked me to prove that you need to prove your claim. What my expectations are is irrelevant.
Reading comprehension, old friend. Re-read what you said to me, and what I said to you as it pertains to this matter.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am Well that wasn't what you typed, hence me asking, was there a typo?
"I'd like proof that I need to prove that to you, sir."

Well, that is what I typed as of now, isn't it? With no typo.

:D
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am What is and isn't a logical fallacy isn't a matter of opinion. My demonstration is based on logic, in contrast with yours being based on testimony.
The problem is, the logic is sick ("ill" logic).
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am Now prove that the concept a MGB is coherent, and no laws of logic are being violated based on the mere concept without presuming it is possible for a MGB to exist or that the existence of a MGB is conceivable. Last time I asked you to prove that, you said a) it was logical because you can conceive of the MGB, and b) told me prove that it is illogical. a) was a circular argument, and b) shifting your burden.
Prove to me that no laws of logic are being violated as it pertains to the logic/illogic of your question to me?

And yeah, when I stated to you that a MGB is logical because you can conceive of it, then you implied that I needed to prove to you that I can conceive of it.

And then when I said "prove to me that you can't conceive of a MGB", you stated that you never claimed that you could/couldn't conceive of a MGB (something like that).

So now, let me str8 up ask you; can you conceive of a MGB?

If you answer..

Yes: Then why are we having this conversation.

No: Then I will challenge you to prove to me that you can't (which is of course ridiculous, but hey).
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am So why did you ask me to prove something that I never claimed?
I asked that question based on implication and the flow of the conversation...now, if I was wrong, then I was wrong.

However, we are about to fix that right now, once you answer the above question.. :D

I mean, you could always plead the fifth or say "I don't know"...at which either response will be just as good as a yes for me.

So, either way... :D
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am Because that's not how validity is measured; a false premise with a false conclusion doesn't necessarily mean the argument is invalid.
Well, I can care less what you call a false premise with a false conclusion, just as long as you don't call it true.

But then again, this is just another case where you are clearly wrong.

"Valid: an argument is valid if and only if it is necessary that if all of the premises are true, then the conclusion is true; if all the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true; it is impossible that all the premises are true and the conclusion is false."

https://web.stanford.edu/~bobonich/term ... 0is%20true.

Do you see this -------> ".....if ALL OF THE PREMISES ARE TRUE"

Premise 1 of your argument <----false :D :D :D
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am Because you made the claim that you can, as support for an argument you presented for debate.
We are gonna see about that one.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am What does that have to do with the cartoonish, bearded man of my imagination?
Hmm. Same question I asked you when you first mentioned this bearded man, what does that have to do with the MGB of my imagination?

Remember that? But then again, I can challenge you to prove to me that you are imagining a cartoonish, bearded man sitting on the clouds.

As a matter of fact, I will; please prove to me that you can conceive of a cartoonish, bearded man sitting on the clouds.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 am Why even wait? Whether I can prove my claim or not, doesn't stop you from proving your own, does it?
Why not wait? Whether I can prove my argument, doesn't stop you from proving the validity of your counter-argument, does it?
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #165

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm Patting myself on the back?? I'm simply showing the flaws in your line of argumentation. No back patting necessary.
Showing the flaws in my argumentation? Is that what you are doing?
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm That's odd, you've made the same 'playful' request to multiple people now.

Remember this?
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:56 pm Tell ya what, draw a picture of a one-sided stick and share it with the "class". Until you do that, I am not going to entertain any of, in my opinion, such foolishness.
Didn't sound too playful. Sounded like the screech of goal post movement. Now that the spotlight is back on you because of this, it was "playful". Right.
First off, that isn't what I was referring to...I was referring to the squared circle thingy...the one where I stated to draw it and then I can see it and can finally stop using the "squared circle" example...and I even provided a smilie to emphasize the playful challenge.

So, "gotcha moment"....fail.
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm First, I'm not your "brotha", so kindly refrain.
Anywayz..
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm Second, how can you possibly know how serious I am being? Just because many of use are showing serious flaws in your line of reasoning doesn't mean we are all of a sudden 'taking things seriously'. What we are doing is responding to your arguments. This is a debate site after all. If there was no disagreement and banter back and forth this site would be boring.
Gotcha.
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm Again, transference of emotion. I'm not being 'gung ho' I'm simply pointing out the obvious problems with the current line of reasoning. Only readers will know if anything has been accomplished. I'm sure they are busy munching their popcorn and maybe learning something from one/both/neither of us.
They are learning something; from me. They are learning how to give valid/sound arguments for the existence of God.

Free education. :D
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm Well I can conceive of a one sided stick. So well in fact I provided a concept rendering of it and even described in detail how I could use if for nefarious purposes. If I can describe something ludicrous, surely I have imagined it. I certainly didn't find a real one sided stick on the side of the road.
So, how long is this one sided stick you can imagine so tough? :D
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm When you found that inconvenient for your narrative, you opted (as clearly shown here) for the special pleading fallacy.
*sigh* SMH.
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm IMHO, I think a better tactic to take would have been to try and show some evidence for the MGB you have imagined rather than trying to disprove what other people can imagine. I certainly cannot provide any evidence for a one sided stick so you providing evidence of an MGB would surely win the day and be a feather in your cap for persuading people to your side of the debate.
Can you conceive of a MGB, as depicted in the argument? :D
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm And there we go right back to it. Some thinly veiled insults and stamping your feet insisting what others can or can't imagine based on whether we can draw it or not. I thought you said YOU were being playful? I'm not playing games, so...
Again, can you imagine the existence of a MGB?
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm Well, I did quote you above where you said you would not "entertain such foolishness".
Because shapes can be drawn, and minds cannot be drawn. Again, my argument is based on the fact that certain things cannot be conceived..and your ability to draw a shape that you claim you are imagining will cause the ULTIMATE DEATH to the MOA.

Isn't that what you want? :D

I don't have any problem admitting that I cannot draw a MGB, because again, a mind cannot be drawn, which is why I had to "prove" my claim in other fashions.

You, however, have a "one-up" on me, because your concept can (if it is possible) be drawn. So, draw it.
benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm Are you now saying you believe it's possible for something to exist that I can't manage to draw?
Yup.

benchwarmer wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 9:58 pm Well, you said something close enough, those are your words I quoted above. If you won't "entertain my foolishness" because I won't "share with the class" a drawing, what else am I supposed to think?

How about be absolutely clear what is required to prove to you that I have imagined anything? I think that might save us some time. This time remember your rules apply to everyone, you included.
It is possible for God to exist, therefore, God exists. Back to the argument.
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #166

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:53 pm It is possible for God to exist, therefore, God exists. Back to the argument.
I'm just going to cut to this as we are going in circles on the rest.

It has not yet been shown that it is possible for God to exist. I also thought we were talking about an MGB not a specific god (I'm assuming 'God' is the Christian one here).

This entire MOA depends entirely on the equivocation fallacy. You ask people if something is 'possible' and they nod their head yes because they are taking 'possible' in the "I don't know, so maybe" way. The trouble is, it may actually NOT be possible for the MGB as described to exist. In order to know that requires knowing the conditions OUTSIDE our universe. This is impossible and claiming knowledge of anything outside our known universe is simply called 'guessing'.

So while we don't know if a god can exist or not we colloquially say "It's possible".

Unfortunately for the MOA, we need to be using the term 'possible' more rigorously as in "it either is or it isn't". And since we can't know this, you can't simply equivocate from the first meaning to the second.

What does all that mean? It means the first premise:
1. It is possible that a maximally great being exists.
falls flat on it's face as we don't know if it's possible or not in the sense of "can it be or can it not be". The only way it's 'possible' is in the "I don't know" sense .

Trying to trap people into agreeing with that based on colloquial meaning and then switching to actual possibility is pure logical fallacy territory.

The only way to make progress beyond the first premise is to actually show an MBG really is possible. Imagining one does not make it actually possible as we have proven by imagining other ridiculous things. Unless you can fix the argument as presented, the MOA is DOA at premise 1.

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #167

Post by Kenisaw »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:04 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:57 am
Ahh, so the standard is now that is has to be seen, not just imagined, is that what you are saying? Great, show me your god being and we don't have to have this conversation anymore.

Your rules, not mine....
I was not implying that it is the standard...I am merely stating that since shapes can be drawn, to draw the shape...because it is bad enough that the mere concept is incoherent..but if you still want to maintain that you can imagine a incoherent concept, then draw it for me.

It is more of a favor being asked, not a standard. But of course, you or anyone else can't draw it or imagine it...so the whole thing is useless, anyway.

Just more red herrings being added to the already huge pile of other red herrings.

The argument can't be refuted so we've stooped to childish, elementary school levels.
That's funny. You move the goal posts, and claim others are being childish. At least be an adult and admit when you've changed your standards to fit the moment. Taxi-cab fallacy indeed my boy. You said if it could be imagined...your words, not mine.

The Ontological argument has already been refuted, your failure to admit it does not change that. It has been shown in this thread and others that:
-Omniscience is impossible.
-Omnipotence is impossible.
-Everpresent is impossible.
-The claim that the universe had a cause cannot be substantiated.
-Gods always existing is a logical impossibility.

There isn't anything left to discuss about Ontological.

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #168

Post by Bust Nak »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:47 pm "Previously given reasons" is enough to demonstrate why your argument fails.

Whether I bring up "new points" to show why the argument fails...or appeal to "previously given reasons" why the argument fails.
That doesn't address what I said: don't bring up points that you aren't willing to address, this holds whether the argument fails or not.
The premise is false.
Now that you've repeatedly made this claim, can you prove it?
We can address how I can easily draw such a conclusion later. First acknowledge that your argument is flawed, and then we can move on to bigger and better things.
How about no, I wait until you have justified your conclusion before I acknowledge your conclusion? That's how debates usually works.
That is like saying "It doesn't mean X is dead, even if I grant you that X is deceased".
Incorrect, it isn't like saying that, because dead means the same thing as deceased; the same does not hold for "false premise" and "invalid," they mean very different things.
Deceased/dead <----take your pick. I will be fine with whichever you want to call it, whether it be invalid or faulty. :D
How about we call it valid instead?

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #169

Post by Bust Nak »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:32 pm Reading comprehension, old friend. Re-read what you said to me, and what I said to you as it pertains to this matter.
Well, it doesn't.
"I'd like proof that I need to prove that to you, sir."

Well, that is what I typed as of now, isn't it? With no typo.
There isn't a typo now sounded a lot like accepting there was a typo.
The problem is, the logic is sick ("ill" logic).
Then you should be able to prove it, go ahead.
Prove to me that no laws of logic are being violated as it pertains to the logic/illogic of your question to me?

And yeah, when I stated to you that a MGB is logical because you can conceive of it, then you implied that I needed to prove to you that I can conceive of it.

And then when I said "prove to me that you can't conceive of a MGB", you stated that you never claimed that you could/couldn't conceive of a MGB (something like that).
Yep, and that's a circular argument followed by shifting the burden, just like I said.
So now, let me str8 up ask you; can you conceive of a MGB?

If you answer..

Yes: Then why are we having this conversation.

No: Then I will challenge you to prove to me that you can't (which is of course ridiculous, but hey).
How about this answer: I don't know, I don't want to speculate, nor do I want to make claims that I am unable/unwilling to support.
However, we are about to fix that right now, once you answer the above question.. :D

I mean, you could always plead the fifth or say "I don't know"...at which either response will be just as good as a yes for me.
Ha, so you knew there was an easy way out and still thought to ask me that question?
Well, I can care less what you call a false premise with a false conclusion, just as long as you don't call it true.
But I care what you call it, or rather, not call it: it's not invalid.
"Valid: an argument is valid if and only if it is necessary that if all of the premises are true, then the conclusion is true; if all the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true; it is impossible that all the premises are true and the conclusion is false."

Do you see this -------> ".....if ALL OF THE PREMISES ARE TRUE"
*Facepalm* Yes, this is exactly why the argument is valid. Read what you presented here again very slowly, in particular this last bit you highlighted.
Premise 1 of your argument <----false :D :D :D
But if all of the premises are true, then would the conclusion be true, or would it be false?
We are gonna see about that one.
I have my doubts about that, I am still waiting for you to make a new thread like you said you would.
Same question I asked you when you first mentioned this bearded man, what does that have to do with the MGB of my imagination?

Remember that?
Yeah. That was relevant because you claim that atheists and theists alike was able to image god as support for your argument. Where as I made no such claim.
But then again, I can challenge you to prove to me that you are imagining a cartoonish, bearded man sitting on the clouds.
How about I draw him out? That seemed to be an acceptable proof by your standard?
As a matter of fact, I will; please prove to me that you can conceive of a cartoonish, bearded man sitting on the clouds.
How can I refuse after you said please:

Why not wait?
Because it gives the impression that you can't.
Whether I can prove my argument, doesn't stop you from proving the validity of your counter-argument, does it?
Correct! Which is why I go the extra mile to prove my point.

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #170

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:53 pm It is possible for God to exist, therefore, God exists. Back to the argument.
I'm just going to cut to this as we are going in circles on the rest.
Yeah, you do that. :approve:
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm It has not yet been shown that it is possible for God to exist.
If you can conceive it, it is possible. Illogical/incoherent concepts cannot be conceived, therefore not possible.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm I also thought we were talking about an MGB not a specific god (I'm assuming 'God' is the Christian one here).
The argument does not state which God exists, but rather, that a god exists.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm This entire MOA depends entirely on the equivocation fallacy. You ask people if something is 'possible' and they nod their head yes because they are taking 'possible' in the "I don't know, so maybe" way.
If they don't know, then they need to say "I don't know". Easy solution.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm The trouble is, it may actually NOT be possible for the MGB as described to exist.
That which is not possible cannot be conceived. A MGB (God) can/has been conceived each and every day.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm In order to know that requires knowing the conditions OUTSIDE our universe.
The conditions outside of our universe is irrelevant...all we need to know is that the universe began to exist...so, whatever gave it its beginning must be OUTSIDE of our universe...and once you get yourself to acknowledge that brute fact, then you can piece together what kind of causal agent could cause such an effect...and with careful and critical thinking, you should and oughta eventually draw the "God" conclusion.

That is, unless, of course...
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm This is impossible and claiming knowledge of anything outside our known universe is simply called 'guessing'.
I call it "appealing to the best explanation."
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm So while we don't know if a god can exist or not we colloquially say "It's possible".
All possible necessary truths must be actually true.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm Unfortunately for the MOA, we need to be using the term 'possible' more rigorously as in "it either is or it isn't". And since we can't know this, you can't simply equivocate from the first meaning to the second.
If it can be conceived, it is possible <---based on this fundamental principle, I do know this.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm What does all that mean? It means the first premise:
1. It is possible that a maximally great being exists.
falls flat on it's face as we don't know if it's possible or not in the sense of "can it be or can it not be". The only way it's 'possible' is in the "I don't know" sense .
If you can conceive it, you do know that it is possible...and "I don't know" just simply doesn't work here.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm Trying to trap people into agreeing with that based on colloquial meaning and then switching to actual possibility is pure logical fallacy territory.
In a way, it is a trap....but then again, the people that become trapped are trapped inside the room of "truth".

It is a place where people should want to stay locked in, instead of trying to get out of there.
benchwarmer wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:05 pm The only way to make progress beyond the first premise is to actually show an MBG really is possible. Imagining one does not make it actually possible as we have proven by imagining other ridiculous things. Unless you can fix the argument as presented, the MOA is DOA at premise 1.
I don't know about you people, but I cannot imagine a squared circle or 2+2=96 (which are the main two we were discussing).

But I can imagine a MGB. So why can I imagine one and not the others? Because the other two are logically absurd, and logical absurdities cannot exist in reality and therefore cannot be imagined.

But things that can exist in reality CAN be imagined.

Dont fight it...embrace it.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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