Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

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Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

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Greetings. A couple of years ago, I created a similar thread on the Modal Ontological Argument for the existence of God. It was a fun thread, with some by some interesting exchanges.

I thought we should reexamine the argument and why I feel it is just one of many valid/sound arguments for the existence of God.

The Modal Ontological Argument (MOA), of course, using “modal” logic…and this frame of logic relies heavily on “possible world” semantics. This is the great Alvin Plantiga’s version of it…and it is extremely elegant, I must say.

But lets define some stuff first..

What is a possible world? A possible world (PW) is a complete and consistent way the world is or could have been. In other words, there is a “possible world at which Lebron James wins MVP at least twice in his career”.

What this is saying is that there are a set of circumstances which will allow for the said proposition to be true.

There is also a possible world at which the said proposition will be false (should at the end of his career, he didn't win MVP at least twice).

So, when PW semantics is being used, it is just describing a set of circumstances which may/may not be true (or possible).

That being said, lets distinguish two concepts of truths..


Contingent truth: is a true proposition that could have been false; a contingent falsehood is a false proposition that could have been true. This is sometimes expressed by saying that a contingent proposition is one that is true in some possible worlds and not in others.

For example, the fact that I currently live in the United States is a contingent truth…because there are a set of circumstances at which I could possibly currently live in another country…so where I live is based on a variety of circumstances.

Necessary truth: is a proposition that could not possibly have been false. This can be expressed by saying that a necessary truth is a proposition that is true in every possible world. An example of a truth that many philosophers take to be necessary in this sense is: 2+2 = 4.

Good examples of necessary truths are mathematical, as 2+2=4 in all possible worlds, with no exceptions…making its truth necessary.

Now, we’ve defined possible worlds, we’ve defined the two concepts of truths…now, lets define God..

God, at least in the Christian tradition, has been defined as..

Omnipotent: All powerful
Ominicient: All knowing
Omnipresent: Active and in control everywhere at all times
Eternal: Having no beginning, or end, not depending on anything for its existence. An existence which is..necessary (which means under no circumstance can it cease existing).

For sake of the argument, we call this being a Maximally Great Being (MGB).
Now, the question is; does such a being exists or not?? Which brings forth the argument..

See next post..
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #131

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Bust Nak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:43 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:37 pm 1. The complete lack of existence is impossible (trust me, a thread on this is coming).
Sure. I'll wait. But you are aware that "a complete lack of existence" is just one way of an MGB not existing, right?
No, I wasn't aware of that. And from what I read below; still not.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:43 pm A trivial alternative would be an eternal universe devoid of any personal beings.
Red herring. No relevance.
Bust Nak wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:43 pm
2. The lack of existence cannot be impossible in all possible worlds, because existence is possible in THIS WORLD (the actual world).
So what? That's a red herring fallacy. My argument does not rely on such a premise. Did you misread what I typed again?
No, I read correctly...

1) 1. It is possible that nothing what-so-ever exists.

The first premise is false. So we can't even get past premise 1 before your argument begins unraveling. :D

Your argument is unsound/invalid, is what I am trying to say.
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #132

Post by Kenisaw »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:46 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm It is not possible that a MGB exists. A MGB contradicts itself, and a being that contradicts itself cannot be maximally great.
On the surface, I agree.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm A god that is all knowing and can change the future is contradictory.
I wouldn't necessarily say "change the future" per se. God can manipulate the present to get a future outcome which he desires.

But God's foreknowledge and man's free will...those are admittedly tough concepts to harmonize.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm A being that is perfect and created imperfect humans is contradictory.
So, if I am perfect, I can't create imperfect milk that will spoil if I decided to do so?
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm A maximally great being can create a square circle and a married bachelor, both contradictory things.
Actually, not even a MGB can do those things.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm A MGB is supposedly omnipotent, but can't do everything.
A MGB can do anything that is within logic. The creation of squared circles or married bachelors are not within the laws of logic..therefore, it cannot be done.

And if a MGB cant do it, no one can do it.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm An MGB can't possible exist.
You thought it was gonna be that easy?
It is that easy. Your MGB cannot be all knowing, it cannot be all powerful, and it cannot be perfect, because of the logical contradictions that entails. If it is not all knowing then it can't know that what it does is always good. So it can't be all good then. At this point the "maximally great" train has already left the station. If the being can't even be good all the time then it is no better than your average human. Your MGB is Joe Sixpack.

There's also the problem of "possible". The first statement has an assumption in it that is unsupported - It is possible a MGB exists. Really? Says who, and why. Any data or empirical evidence to support that claim? We have nothing supporting the claim that it is even possible. It's the same problem with the concept that if a MGB was possible in another world (or universe), then it would be possible in all worlds (or universes). Again, why. You have to assume that all worlds (or universes) are the same, or at least have the same rules in them. What reason do we have to assume this? None whatsoever. If there is no reason to think it is possible, then there is no reason to think the argument is valid. And for all the people that have come to this website and posted the ontological argument, no one ever has ever shown why it should be considered possible in the first place.

Being able to think of it doesn't make it possible. We've already mentioned square circles, we can think of that. Being able to think of something does not give it credence in reality.

It really is that easy.

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #133

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am
It is that easy. Your MGB cannot be all knowing, it cannot be all powerful, and it cannot be perfect, because of the logical contradictions that entails.
Well, when you enlighten me on this alleged "logical contradiction", then it will be considered.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am If it is not all knowing then it can't know that what it does is always good. So it can't be all good then. At this point the "maximally great" train has already left the station. If the being can't even be good all the time then it is no better than your average human. Your MGB is Joe Sixpack.
The conclusion "if it is not all knowing then it can't know that what it does is always good" came wayy out of left field with no point of origin.

It is an empty claim, is what I am trying to say. :D
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am There's also the problem of "possible". The first statement has an assumption in it that is unsupported - It is possible a MGB exists. Really? Says who, and why.
See justification.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am Any data or empirical evidence to support that claim?
See justification...because it sounds like you are asking something equivalent to "how much does the immaterial spirit weigh"?.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am We have nothing supporting the claim that it is even possible. It's the same problem with the concept that if a MGB was possible in another world (or universe), then it would be possible in all worlds (or universes). Again, why. You have to assume that all worlds (or universes) are the same, or at least have the same rules in them. What reason do we have to assume this? None whatsoever. If there is no reason to think it is possible, then there is no reason to think the argument is valid. And for all the people that have come to this website and posted the ontological argument, no one ever has ever shown why it should be considered possible in the first place.
Justifications were given.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am Being able to think of it doesn't make it possible. We've already mentioned square circles, we can think of that. Being able to think of something does not give it credence in reality.

It really is that easy.
I didn't know "we" thought of squared circles? Have you thought of one? Can you draw it for me so I can see what you can conceive?
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #134

Post by Kenisaw »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:43 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am
It is that easy. Your MGB cannot be all knowing, it cannot be all powerful, and it cannot be perfect, because of the logical contradictions that entails.
Well, when you enlighten me on this alleged "logical contradiction", then it will be considered.
My bad, I thought someone already pointed this out. So, if a MGB is all knowing, then it knows all the past and the future, because it knows all. If it knows the future, then there is no way it could change it's mind about what it will do in the future, because if it were going to change it's mind it would already know that. So your MGB cannot change anything it is going to do in the future, which means it can't be all powerful. It is existing deterministically, which doesn't sound too powerful to me. There's goes perfection out the window too. Perfection was shot anyway because something cannot be perfect if it creates imperfectly, and that is certainly the case with you and me, eh?
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am If it is not all knowing then it can't know that what it does is always good. So it can't be all good then. At this point the "maximally great" train has already left the station. If the being can't even be good all the time then it is no better than your average human. Your MGB is Joe Sixpack.
The conclusion "if it is not all knowing then it can't know that what it does is always good" came wayy out of left field with no point of origin.

It is an empty claim, is what I am trying to say. :D
Again my bad, I thought you were aware of this: Unfortunately for any god, it doesn't know what it doesn't know. The MGB could have been created by another god, and that other god created the MGB to think that it has always existed and knows all. So the MGB thinks it knows all, but doesn't, because it doesn't know about the other god. The MGB can't rule out the possibility of the other god either, because it has to admit it doesn't know what it doesn't know. The other god is in the same situation. There could be a third god that pulled the same trick that the other god pulled on the MGB. Omniscience is logically impossible. You don't know what you don't know.

Which is why the MGB can't be all good, because it can't know for sure that it knows everything required to be good all the time.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am There's also the problem of "possible". The first statement has an assumption in it that is unsupported - It is possible a MGB exists. Really? Says who, and why.
See justification.
That's already been shot full of holes. It's already been shown that conceiving of something does not mean it has to be possible. The MGB has been shown to be illogical, just like a square circle. In your OP you defined the MGB has having incompatible properties that can't possibly exist. So your claim that a MGB is possible because it can be imagined is unsupported.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am Any data or empirical evidence to support that claim?
See justification...because it sounds like you are asking something equivalent to "how much does the immaterial spirit weigh"?
Don't worry, I already know there isn't any empirical evidence or data for all this. If there were, humans wouldn't have spent the last 2000 years trying to prove the existence of gods through philosophy. The raw data would be up on very billboard across the planet.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am We have nothing supporting the claim that it is even possible. It's the same problem with the concept that if a MGB was possible in another world (or universe), then it would be possible in all worlds (or universes). Again, why. You have to assume that all worlds (or universes) are the same, or at least have the same rules in them. What reason do we have to assume this? None whatsoever. If there is no reason to think it is possible, then there is no reason to think the argument is valid. And for all the people that have come to this website and posted the ontological argument, no one ever has ever shown why it should be considered possible in the first place.
Justifications were given.
Yes, and summarily shot down. If the answer to my question is that "I thought of these possibilities", then that is no reason to assume they are true for the purposes of this discussion. You are making it up as you go along (or at least the original person who dreamed this up did and you are just reiterating it). It is assumed that an MGB is possible (which it has already shown that it can't exist as stated), and that it can exist in some possible world (although we have no reason given as why we should think such a world exists), and that these possible worlds have to contain our universe.

It's like you think that the possibility of an MGB automatically gives rise to possible worlds. There's no reason to think that one automatically makes the other one true. The whole proposition is an attempt to define into existence that which can't possibly exist and for which there is exactly zero empirical data supporting it in the real world.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am Being able to think of it doesn't make it possible. We've already mentioned square circles, we can think of that. Being able to think of something does not give it credence in reality.

It really is that easy.
I didn't know "we" thought of squared circles? Have you thought of one? Can you draw it for me so I can see what you can conceive?
It just has to be imagined in order for it to be possible, remember? Your rules, not mine....

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #135

Post by benchwarmer »

Kenisaw wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:07 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:43 pm I didn't know "we" thought of squared circles? Have you thought of one? Can you draw it for me so I can see what you can conceive?
It just has to be imagined in order for it to be possible, remember? Your rules, not mine....
Venom tried to pull this same baloney on me as well. Moving the goal posts from imagining it to drawing it. Even when I managed that, Venom claimed to not see anything. Every time an argument is shown to be faulty or full of holes, a claim of ignorance or not understanding is brought forth like clockwork. I'm sure it's clear to readers what's going on.

I propose a counter challenge: Venom, please draw us a perfect circle (absolutely perfect, down to the atomic level). If you can't, I guess that means you can't imagine one? And if you can't imagine one, then your imagined circles are squared (as in not perfectly round) no?

I look forward to "I don't get it", "prove I can't imagine it", "this makes no sense", etc.

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #136

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Kenisaw wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:07 pm My bad, I thought someone already pointed this out. So, if a MGB is all knowing, then it knows all the past and the future, because it knows all. If it knows the future, then there is no way it could change it's mind about what it will do in the future, because if it were going to change it's mind it would already know that. So your MGB cannot change anything it is going to do in the future, which means it can't be all powerful. It is existing deterministically, which doesn't sound too powerful to me.
To sum up the argument and to also borrow from St. Anslem...God is the greatest conceivable being.

You state that since God cannot change his mind because he knows all (which I agree), then the question becomes; can you conceive of a being of whom..

"can change his mind about what he will do in the future, (if he knows the future), because he will already know that".

If the answer is..

1. Yes: Then the being you are thinking of is God.
2. No: Then it isn't conceivable, and it cannot be done.

When we say God is all powerful (omnipotent), we simply mean that God can do all logical things (anything that is logically possible)...and what you are suggesting isn't logical; so that isn't a strike against God's power, it is a testament to the fact that God is completely within logic and reason...which should be a good thing.

And since it isn't logical, you cannot conceive of a being which CAN do it (because if you could, then the being you are conceiving is God).

So, nice try, but fail. :D
Kenisaw wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:07 pm There's goes perfection out the window too. Perfection was shot anyway because something cannot be perfect if it creates imperfectly, and that is certainly the case with you and me, eh?
Was this created imperfection by accident, or by choice?
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am Again my bad, I thought you were aware of this: Unfortunately for any god, it doesn't know what it doesn't know. The MGB could have been created by another god, and that other god created the MGB to think that it has always existed and knows all. So the MGB thinks it knows all, but doesn't, because it doesn't know about the other god. The MGB can't rule out the possibility of the other god either, because it has to admit it doesn't know what it doesn't know. The other god is in the same situation. There could be a third god that pulled the same trick that the other god pulled on the MGB. Omniscience is logically impossible. You don't know what you don't know.

Which is why the MGB can't be all good, because it can't know for sure that it knows everything required to be good all the time.
A MGB created by another God would be contingent, and not necessary.

*sigh*
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am
That's already been shot full of holes. It's already been shown that conceiving of something does not mean it has to be possible. The MGB has been shown to be illogical, just like a square circle.
What? Where? LOL.

If anything, what you've shown is your misunderstanding of the argument. Because to even consider giving a scenario at which the MGB was created just goes to show your misunderstandings here.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am In your OP you defined the MGB has having incompatible properties that can't possibly exist. So your claim that a MGB is possible because it can be imagined is unsupported.
Let me ask you this; can you imagine a squared circle?
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am
Don't worry, I already know there isn't any empirical evidence or data for all this. If there were, humans wouldn't have spent the last 2000 years trying to prove the existence of gods through philosophy. The raw data would be up on very billboard across the planet.
Yeah, and people still wouldn't believe. It isn't necessarily about the lack of evidence, it is about the darkness and hardened hearts of the people.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am Yes, and summarily shot down. If the answer to my question is that "I thought of these possibilities", then that is no reason to assume they are true for the purposes of this discussion. You are making it up as you go along (or at least the original person who dreamed this up did and you are just reiterating it).
I wouldn't have presented it if I didn't think it was valid/sound.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am It is assumed that an MGB is possible (which it has already shown that it can't exist as stated)
So, you really think those objections you presented are worthy of shattering the entire argument?

Please, dont.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am , and that it can exist in some possible world (although we have no reason given as why we should think such a world exists), and that these possible worlds have to contain our universe. It's like you think that the possibility of an MGB automatically gives rise to possible worlds. There's no reason to think that one automatically makes the other one true. The whole proposition is an attempt to define into existence that which can't possibly exist and for which there is exactly zero empirical data supporting it in the real world.
Again, as I stated time and time again, because necessary truths are true in all possible worlds.

Now, props to you for dealing with the mere concept of a MGB and why you think the concept is incoherent...however, the issues you are raising now makes me wonder whether you've been paying attention to anything I've said since the OP...even though the same thing has been covered in the OP.
Kenisaw wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:44 am It just has to be imagined in order for it to be possible, remember? Your rules, not mine....
That is what I am asking you (I asked above as well)...can you imagine a squared circle?
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #137

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:43 pm Venom tried to pull this same baloney on me as well. Moving the goal posts from imagining it to drawing it. Even when I managed that, Venom claimed to not see anything. Every time an argument is shown to be faulty or full of holes, a claim of ignorance or not understanding is brought forth like clockwork. I'm sure it's clear to readers what's going on.
First of all, I've yet to see a squared circle from you or anyone.

Second, I cannot imagine a squared circle...and since you apparently can (and you can't take the thought out of your head and hand it to me), then draw it, so I can see.

That way, I can refrain from using the whole "squared circle" examples :D
benchwarmer wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:43 pm I propose a counter challenge: Venom, please draw us a perfect circle (absolutely perfect, down to the atomic level). If you can't, I guess that means you can't imagine one? And if you can't imagine one, then your imagined circles are squared (as in not perfectly round) no?

I look forward to "I don't get it", "prove I can't imagine it", "this makes no sense", etc.
O <---looks perfect to me.
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #138

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We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:45 am O <---looks perfect to me.
It's not, zoom in. I don't know about your monitor, but mine uses pixels. There is a straight line from one pixel to another. Your 'perfect' circle is not perfect. I guess you CAN imagine circles that have straight lines in them and can NOT imagine a perfect one.

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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #139

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

benchwarmer wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:02 am It's not, zoom in. I don't know about your monitor, but mine uses pixels. There is a straight line from one pixel to another. Your 'perfect' circle is not perfect. I guess you CAN imagine circles that have straight lines in them and can NOT imagine a perfect one.
I meannn, even if I cant..so what? Whether I can or cant has no barren on the soundness/validity of the MOA.

Just another red herring...thread has been filled with lots of those, unfortunately.
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Re: Revisiting the Modal Ontological Argument

Post #140

Post by benchwarmer »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:50 am
benchwarmer wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:02 am It's not, zoom in. I don't know about your monitor, but mine uses pixels. There is a straight line from one pixel to another. Your 'perfect' circle is not perfect. I guess you CAN imagine circles that have straight lines in them and can NOT imagine a perfect one.
I meannn, even if I cant..so what? Whether I can or cant has no barren on the soundness/validity of the MOA.

Just another red herring...thread has been filled with lots of those, unfortunately.
This is the oft used cry when the argument is shown to be flawed.

This example has direct bearing on your imagined MGB. If you can't even imagine a perfect circle, how in the world can you imagine a perfect being? :confused2:

Remember, we are playing by YOUR rules in this case. You claim if you can imagine something, it can exist. Now we are showing that you can't even imagine a perfect circle because of your own insistence that we need to be able to draw our imaginings. You are the one that brought us down this rabbit hole when it was pointed out that others CAN imagine all sorts of absurd things that are not possible in this world. Remember the whole one side stick? You were trying to prove I couldn't imagine one because I couldn't draw one. I then drew one, but that wasn't good enough.

Well, now your own argument has come home to roost. If you can't draw a perfect circle, then you can't have imagined one. If you can't even imagine a perfect circle, you certainly can't imagine a perfect being. Unless maybe you want to take a stab at drawing an MGB now?

Face it, your attempts to shoot holes in others arguments here are now shooting yourself in the foot.

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