It's common for atheists to describe God as a celestial tribal leader and killer or as a sky ghost who telepathically communicates his revelations and his marching orders to those he has privileged to receive them. He spies on everything we do looking for anything that we do that breaks his many rules. He hurts us if we violate those rules. He also inspires people to write books in languages that almost nobody will eventually speak or understand. He can't seem to clarify every message he has supposedly authored in those books, and some of those books either go missing or get thrown out as what even his followers cannot believe.
Atheists do not and apparently cannot believe in such a God, and neither do I. While I see some compelling reasons to believe in a God, I don't believe in the God I have described above. I think that's a God that people have made up for their own purposes to feel special about themselves and to see others as not so special. A God like that is only good to control and take advantage of others. He's useless as a source of truth, so why claim that any truth can come from him?
The God I Don't Believe In
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- Paul of Tarsus
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #71You want me to speculate? I'd rather not.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:41 pm Sure, but you just answer the way you think is best if you're anybody else.
I want to participate without speculating.OK, then you don't wish to participate in the discussion.
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #72That's correct. A good example of such a God is Jehovah. I see no reason why people could not have made up Jehovah and his supposed prophecies and revelations. It would be folly, then, to make an additional assumption that he's real nevertheless. There is no good reason to make that additional assumption when the assumption that people made him up suffices to explain him. So if we wish to seek a real God, we obviously need to seek something that people could not have made up--a God based on reason, perhaps.Tcg wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:32 pmThe same can be said of god/gods. It appears that all such entities are what people could have made up. If people can make up god/gods, then there is no reason to make the additional assumption that any such god/gods actually exist anywhere outside of the imaginations of those who made them up.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:06 pm It appears to me that all such claims of divine revelation are what people could have made up. If people can make up revelations, then I see no reason to make the additional assumption that God has made up some of them.
A God based on reason is a God that I find compelling. My view of God is that he is "the foundation of all being," which is to say that a God might explain existence. This God is not necessarily a personal, conscious being, and he need have no concern with human affairs.
Anyway, to get a better idea of what I'm talking about, I'd recommend you watch this fascinating video.
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #73I was referring to the Watchtower as the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, their Vatican, if you will. That's why I used the pronoun "they," they being the men in the Watchtower who rule the Jehovah's Witnesses rather than the magazine.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:14 amPaul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:06 pmJehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:49 pmIf you look at my earlier posts I made it clear (on several occassions) that only an Almighty, all knowing Creator can "demonstrated truth", for only he would have access to it in the absolute. All any human can do is express his or her belief that this has been done. The Watchtower is a magazine (it is ink and paper or digitel pixels) it cannot "demonstrate" anything. It is published by Jehovahs Witnesses and we therein express our belief in the source of truth which we hold to be the bible.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:58 pm
What truth did they [the Watchtower] ever demonstrate?
We have absolutely no problem if you, or anyone disagrees.
Anyway, I take your response as answering my question in the negative. The Watchtower has never demonstrated any truths that people could not have come up with. There is then no sensible way to justify that they speak for a real Jehovah.
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #74Unless you are claiming the individuels in the JW governing body are not human, my comment still applies.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:26 am
I was referring to the Watchtower as the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses...
The are individuels that share my faith and are in no position to do any more than express their faith in the truth of Gods Word the bible, as do I. We (Jehovah's Witnesses) whether in a position of leadership or not, all believe Jehovah is the True and living God and to date nobody has proven otherwise. You obviously are not saying you know whether Jehovah existe or not so I cannot see any reason to view your comment as and more than a belief ststement. I respect your right to express what you believe as strongly as I do; on that we stand on common ground.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #75Just for clarity, the group you're referring to is officially "The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses." Informally, Jehovah's Witnesses refer to them as "the faithful and discreet slave" or "the slave."Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:26 amI was referring to the Watchtower as the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, their Vatican, if you will. That's why I used the pronoun "they," they being the men in the Watchtower who rule the Jehovah's Witnesses rather than the magazine.
The name of the not-for-profit corporation in the United States is "The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania."
The magazine is named The Watchtower.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #76What comment is that?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:55 amUnless you are claiming the individuels in the JW governing body are not human, my comment still applies.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:26 am
I was referring to the Watchtower as the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses...
I think that people are obviously better off if their faith can be grounded in reason and evidence. It sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses don't always have that luxury.The are individuels that share my faith and are in no position to do any more than express their faith in the truth of Gods Word the bible, as do I.
That is correct. As far as I know nobody has proved Jehovah to be false or dead. The same can be said for any god, of course. Gods tend to be difficult to pin down.We (Jehovah's Witnesses) whether in a position of leadership or not, all believe Jehovah is the True and living God and to date nobody has proven otherwise.
It depends on what you mean by "Jehovah." It's commonly understood that that name is a Latinized corruption of the Tetragrammaton and is mispronounced. The proper pronunciation is "Yahweh." So if Jehovah's Witnesses call themselves a name that involves getting the name of Yahweh wrong, then I'm not likely to trust whatever else they have to say about God. Would you buy a vehicle from a dealer that has a sign up saying: "Karz & Trukcs fer Sail"?You obviously are not saying you know whether Jehovah existe or not so I cannot see any reason to view your comment as and more than a belief ststement.
I hope we don't stand on common ground. The ground I see you standing on appears to involve the stubborn denial of any reason that goes against what you want to believe and contempt for objective, verifiable truth.I respect your right to express what you believe as strongly as I do; on that we stand on common ground.
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #77Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:25 pmWhat comment is that?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:55 amUnless you are claiming the individuels in the JW governing body are not human, my comment still applies.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:26 am
I was referring to the Watchtower as the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses...
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:14 am
If you look at my earlier posts I made it clear (on several occassions) that only an Almighty, all knowing Creator can "demonstrated truth", for only he would have access to it in the absolute. All any human can do is express his or her belief that this has been done. The Watchtower is a magazine (it is ink and paper or digitel pixels) it cannot "demonstrate" anything. It is published by Jehovahs Witnesses and we therein express our belief in the source of truth which we hold to be the bible.
Difflugia kindly provided an informative post on various terms to avoid confusion.
viewtopic.php?p=1037417#p1037417
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #78If people had reason and evidence, there'd be no need for faith.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:25 pm
I think that people are obviously better off if their faith can be grounded in reason and evidence. It sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses don't always have that luxury.
Difficult? Impossible actually.
That is correct. As far as I know nobody has proved Jehovah to be false or dead. The same can be said for any god, of course. Gods tend to be difficult to pin down.
Well, to support this accusation all you'd need to do is present objective, verifiable truth.
I hope we don't stand on common ground. The ground I see you standing on appears to involve the stubborn denial of any reason that goes against what you want to believe and contempt for objective, verifiable truth.
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #79You can have that truth by just reading what JW has been posting on this thread.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:33 pmWell, to support this accusation all you'd need to do is present objective, verifiable truth.I hope we don't stand on common ground. The ground I see you standing on appears to involve the stubborn denial of any reason that goes against what you want to believe and contempt for objective, verifiable truth.
I've already rebutted this atheist slogan. It rests on a misunderstanding of what faith is.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:33 pmIf people had reason and evidence, there'd be no need for faith.Paul of Tarsus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:25 pm
I think that people are obviously better off if their faith can be grounded in reason and evidence. It sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses don't always have that luxury.
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Re: The God I Don't Believe In
Post #80I'm reminded of a history where y'all made it so others didn't have to follow government imposed recitations, and perfuntiories, and all such as that.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:55 am I respect your right to express what you believe as strongly as I do; on that we stand on common ground.
With y'all's guidance, I sit for any display of government fealty - in a right way - I reject any notion that standing makes me more patriotic. I reject any argument that says my recitations prove my fealty. I don't place my hand on my heart specifically cause folks might demand I do. I refuse to take off my hat unless a lady walks by, for fear momma might come back her from the dead and smack me around a bit.
Now that ain't to say it was what it was y'all was agetting at. I ain't trying to put this all on y'all.
I love me my country cause I have me the option to hate it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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