How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Paul of Tarsus
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How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

As you should know some non-Christian scholars like Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a "small time" Jewish preacher. He never rose from the dead. Nevertheless, Jesus and his life inspired the world's largest religion. If Ehrman and Crossan are right about Jesus, then we must ask how Jesus became the lasting focal point of his followers. Why did the disciples preach that he was God's right-hand man and savior of the world if they knew he had suffered an ignominious death at the hands of the Romans never to be seen again?

The pieces of this puzzle don't fit together very well. It seems likely to me that Jesus would have been very famous in his day to inspire people the way he did. On the other hand, a very famous Jesus would have probably been noticed by the historians of the early first century, yet they say nothing about him.

Any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

RightReason wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:53 am
...Why did the disciples preach that he was God's right-hand man and savior of the world if they knew he had suffered an ignominious death at the hands of the Romans never to be seen again?
Great question and one we should ask ourselves. It is similar to C.S. Lewis’s, “Lunatic, Liar, or Lord” observation. Given that Christianity spread to every continent on the globe and this even prior to the invention of the printing press is no small thing. When reading the historical records there are of Jesus claiming to be who He claimed to be, the only thing to conclude would be He was either a lunatic, a liar, or Lord. There is no middle ground to believe He could have just been a good preacher who lived a long time ago. He couldn’t be considered good if He claimed to be the son of God if that were not true.
I assume that you choose "Lord" as the answer to Lewis's trilemma. Of course, secular historians are unlikely to accept that Jesus was God All-mighty although doing so would explain how Jesus became famous. I think it's safe to say that most historians conclude that Jesus was merely deluded, a possibility that Lewis does not appear to entertain. If Jesus was deluded believing he would save Israel from all their troubles, then it's odd that anybody would base a religion on him when they saw that Jesus was not going to save Israel.

In any case, secular historians have a genuine problem here if they insist on a merely human Jesus. Their version of Jesus does not explain well the rise of Christianity. If they are right, then Christians won the "cultural lottery" making Jesus the savior of the western world despite all the odds against it.

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:26 pm In my opinion Jesus became so well known because his followers worked tirelessly to make it so.
Did he not achieve fame because he was Jehovah's son?
Why? I would speculate that is is because they genuinely believed in their cause, convinced, I believe by the first hand accounts (produced within living memory) of his (Jesus) ministry by those in a position to know.
What you're saying here makes better sense than the secular version of Jesus because we have a plausible motive. If there was nothing more to Jesus than a preacher who died and was gone, then we have no known motive for his followers to make him out to be anything more than what he was.

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:59 am So how did the belief that Jesus is the Messiah originate?
Probably because he told his disciple he was The Messiah.
If Jesus died having failed his mission as the Messiah, then who would have believed him? The disciples evidently did believe he was the Messiah, but secular history as normally practiced has no good reasons that I know of to explain that belief. One possibility is that the whole story of Jesus was passed down to the gospel writers who took it on faith. The origin of that whole story is still a mystery, however.

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by historia »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:12 pm
By the way, do you know why some historians say Jesus had only a small number of followers? Historians obviously don't get that from the gospels because the gospels say that Jesus had "multitudes" of followers.
That depends on what you mean by "followers."

It seems to me that critical scholars actually accept the fact that large crowds came to hear Jesus speak -- which is what the gospels say, too -- but that his actual supporters would have been much smaller in number.

Critical scholars are also more likely to see the gospel accounts as exaggerated in places, including perhaps in their description of the size of the crowds -- which would not be uncommon among ancient sources, so "likely" in that respect.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:12 pm
It makes more sense to me that there was a Jesus who was more like the gospel Jesus. That is, he was a very unique individual who had a large following, and for one reason or another his followers did believe he rose from the dead.
It seems to me that critical scholars would largely agree with this -- that is, they conclude that Jesus was, in fact, a charismatic individual who drew crowds and followers, and that, after his death, something happened that caused his supporters to believe he rose from the dead.

It seems to me, too, that most Roman historians just weren't that interested in Jewish holy men, regardless of their popularity, so the fact that early first century historians don't mention Jesus is not terribly surprising.

The first century historian who is most interested in Jewish religious and political movements, and actually writes about those at some length, is Josephus (from the end of the century), and he, of course, mentions Jesus.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:59 am
So how did the belief that Jesus is the Messiah originate?
I think it's quite likely that Jesus believed himself to be the messiah and communicated that privately to his disciplines. Interestingly, not all critical scholars agree with that. But I think Jesus' actions indicate he had at least some sense of a messianic vocation.

The fact that Jesus' followers continued to think he was the messiah after his death is really only explicable on the grounds that they thought he had risen from the dead, and thus God had vindicated his messianic claim.

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:04 pm Why did the disciples preach that he was God's right-hand man and savior of the world if they knew he had suffered an ignominious death at the hands of the Romans
Because...

Lk 9:22 "And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life."

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:04 pm never to be seen again?
^contradicts..

(post Resurrection) Matt 28:8 "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:04 pm The pieces of this puzzle don't fit together very well. It seems likely to me that Jesus would have been very famous in his day to inspire people the way he did.
He was very famous..the Bible is clear that Jesus' had many followers and drew large crowds and were becoming so popular that the religious authorities sought to kill him.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:04 pm On the other hand, a very famous Jesus would have probably been noticed by the historians of the early first century, yet they say nothing about him.

Any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.
A few points..

1. Josephus and Tacitus were historians who mentioned Jesus in some capacity.

2. Sounds like you are committing the argument from silence fallacy.

3. Considering the fact that Christianity has been the #1 religion in the world in terms of total followers for a longgg time, the mentioning of Jesus from historians just wasn't needed...because he and the religion named after him (Christianity) has gained esteem and popularity despite any "outside" help or influences.
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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:07 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:26 pm In my opinion Jesus became so well known because his followers worked tirelessly to make it so.
Did he not achieve fame because he was Jehovah's son?
If the bible record is to be believed, then we have it on record that is his being Gods son was the motivating factor as to why his disciple worked so tirelessly to make Jesus so well know.
MATTHEW 16: 16-18

Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ,+ the Son of the living God.”+ 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.+ 18 Also, I say to you: You are Peter,+ and on this rock+ I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it.+

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:07 pm One possibility is that the whole story of Jesus was passed down to the gospel writers who took it on faith. The origin of that whole story is still a mystery, however.


It might be a possibility but hardly a convincing one.
Shall we say that the gospel story is the work of the imagination? ... it would be still more incredible that several persons should have agreed together to invent such a book, than that there was one man who supplied its subject matter. The tone and morality of this story are not those of any Jewish authors, and the gospel indeed contains characters so great, so striking, so entirely inimitable, that their invention would be more astonishing than their hero. -- Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Emile Or, On Education, p. 256

The other possibility of course is that the gospel writers where eye-witnesses of the extraordinary powers of a miracle working Messiah and/or personally interviewed those that were. That they subsequently compiled historically accurate record of the events, well with living memory of those who could challenge their work. And circulated them in the very region the events were said to have happened without said testimonies being squashed by those in a position to expose falsehoods, lies and fabrications therein.

"Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us,+ 2 just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses+ and attendants of the message,+ 3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order,+ most excellent The·ophʹi·lus,+ 4 so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally" - Forward to the book of Luke






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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

historia wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:49 pmIt seems to me that critical scholars actually accept the fact that large crowds came to hear Jesus speak -- which is what the gospels say, too -- but that his actual supporters would have been much smaller in number.
Why do they come to this conclusion?
...after his death, something happened that caused his supporters to believe he rose from the dead.
Or at least that's what the canonical gospels say. If I understand correctly, most popular scholars accept that Jesus' closest followers came to believe he had been raised from the dead.
The first century historian who is most interested in Jewish religious and political movements, and actually writes about those at some length, is Josephus (from the end of the century), and he, of course, mentions Jesus.
Josephus was very popular with contemporary Christians but not with his fellow Jews who deemed him a traitor.
...I think Jesus' actions indicate he had at least some sense of a messianic vocation.
According to the gospels Jesus fulfilled much of the role of the Messiah, and many of his followers seemed to hope he was the Messiah. But of course Jesus never freed Israel from Rome which made him a failed Messiah.
The fact that Jesus' followers continued to think he was the messiah after his death is really only explicable on the grounds that they thought he had risen from the dead, and thus God had vindicated his messianic claim.
This hypothesis has the advantage over what most secular historians tell us happened in that it establishes a motive for the rise of Christianity. If Jesus just died and was gone, then it seems odd to me that anybody would think he was anything more than a loser.

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:39 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:07 pm One possibility is that the whole story of Jesus was passed down to the gospel writers who took it on faith. The origin of that whole story is still a mystery, however.
It might be a possibility but hardly a convincing one.
If we conclude that the whole gospel story was passed down to the gospel writers who took it on faith, then we need not explain anybody being inspired by a failed Messiah. Jesus' triumph over death was part of the whole story all along whether that story is fact or fiction.

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by historia »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:08 pm
historia wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:49 pm
It seems to me that critical scholars actually accept the fact that large crowds came to hear Jesus speak -- which is what the gospels say, too -- but that his actual supporters would have been much smaller in number.
Why do they come to this conclusion?
Two reasons, I think: (a) This is largely what the gospels say, and (b) most movements operate in this manner.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:08 pm
If I understand correctly, most popular scholars accept that Jesus' closest followers came to believe he had been raised from the dead.
Yes, I'm pretty sure all scholars believe this.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:08 pm
historia wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:49 pm
The fact that Jesus' followers continued to think he was the messiah after his death is really only explicable on the grounds that they thought he had risen from the dead, and thus God had vindicated his messianic claim.
This hypothesis has the advantage over what most secular historians tell us happened in that it establishes a motive for the rise of Christianity. If Jesus just died and was gone, then it seems odd to me that anybody would think he was anything more than a loser.
Again, secular scholars think Jesus' followers came to believe he had been raised from the dead, too, so I'm not sure I understand your concerns here.

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Re: How did the historical Jesus become famous?

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Post by William »

How did the historical Jesus become famous?

In reading the comments in this thread, I see an important factor related to most Christian Thinking, is missing from the equation...the belief that Lucifer is "The God of This World."

IF this is actually the case, THEN who could possibly become famous without it being authorized by Lucifer?

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