How did the historical Jesus become famous?

[Paul of Tarsus]

As you should know some non-Christian scholars like Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a "small time" Jewish preacher. He never rose from the dead. Nevertheless, Jesus and his life inspired the world's largest religion. If Ehrman and Crossan are right about Jesus, then we must ask how Jesus became the lasting focal point of his followers. Why did the disciples preach that he was God's right-hand man and savior of the world if they knew he had suffered an ignominious death at the hands of the Romans never to be seen again?

The pieces of this puzzle don't fit together very well. It seems likely to me that Jesus would have been very famous in his day to inspire people the way he did. On the other hand, a very famous Jesus would have probably been noticed by the historians of the early first century, yet they say nothing about him.

Any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.

[Tcg]

As you should know some non-Christian scholars like Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan...

This John Dominic Crossan?

"The key for Crossan in reading the Bible and staying a Christian is to focus on Jesus. Not the Jesus of the Bible, mind you. The real Jesus."

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusi ... -christian

"Crossan identifies as a Christian, and his lectures steered clear of the more controversial topics that have been used in some circles to label him as a heretic. Nothing he said in the lectures seemed revolutionary to me—perhaps because the normalcy of regarding Jesus as a first-century peasant Jew was so ingrained in my own training as an academic reader of the Bible."

https://www.christiancentury.org/blog-p ... ic-crossan

"Crossan’s own portrait of the “historical Jesus” is one of a Jewish peasant non-violent insurrectionist. Crossan does profess to be a “Christian,” believes he is “trying to understand the stories of Jesus, not refute them,” and says, “if people finish with my books and now see why Pilate executed him and why people died for him, then I’ve done my job.”"

https://equipblog.wpengine.com/john-dominic-crossan/

<bolding mine>


Tcg

[Paul of Tarsus]

As you should know some non-Christian scholars like Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan...

This John Dominic Crossan?

I didn't mean this thread to be a debate about which scholars believe what. It's a debate about a common secular view of the historical Jesus in which he achieves world-wide fame and status as the Son of God after living a short life as an obscure-loser Galilean preacher. How did Jesus achieve such fame?

This obviously problematical view of Jesus might be wrong, and the literal gospel portrait of Jesus may be a lot more accurate than secular scholars give it credit for. A Jesus who did rise from the dead would obviously explain Jesus becoming famous.

[historia]

It seems likely to me that Jesus would have been very famous in his day to inspire people the way he did.

Perhaps, but that's not necessary.

Jesus of Nazareth could have had a profound, lasting impact on a relatively small number of followers during his life without becoming "very famous." The religious community he inspired remained quite small for centuries after his death, after all.

Lots of people throughout history have been relatively obscure in their own time, only to become broadly famous and influential after their death. Consider Vincent Van Gough, for example, who was all but unknown and commercially unsuccessful during his life, but is now considered one of the most important and influential painters of all time.

[YahwhatIsBack]

We must keep in mind most Jews rejected Christianity which, prima facie, should serve to show that the evidence wasn't very convincing in the first place. If the people who were there to witness or hear about these amazing events firsthand didn't end up believing it then that says something. Instead, the religion had to be peddled to the gentiles in order to gain converts. The gentiles in foreign countries decades later obviously had no way to fact check or verify/falsify the events. So what started out as a minor Jewish apocalyptic sect that believed the end times and resurrection would happen soon, ended up evolving into a gentile religion where the original apocalyptic context became muted over time and replaced with the "god man" Jesus in the Gospel of John who preaches eternal life for everyone. Who doesn't want that? Eventually, Christianity got a large boost from the Roman emperor Theodosius who made it the state religion. Constantine later converted and the rest is history.

[Paul of Tarsus]

It seems likely to me that Jesus would have been very famous in his day to inspire people the way he did.

Perhaps, but that's not necessary.

Jesus of Nazareth could have had a profound, lasting impact on a relatively small number of followers during his life without becoming "very famous." The religious community he inspired remained quite small for centuries after his death, after all.

First off, thanks a lot for the response. I'm glad to be able to discuss this issue because it's important, and up until now nobody seemed interested.

I agree that Jesus, if he was a "small-time preacher" like many historians say, could have had a big, posthumous impact on his followers and those whom his followers influenced. If so, then it may have been history's greatest delayed reaction. It's very possible, but history is presumably based on what is not merely possible but what is probable. I don't think that it is probable that the secular version of the historical Jesus would have had the impact that he did. Who would have glorified a failed messiah who ended up dead and gone? It makes more sense to me that there was a Jesus who was more like the gospel Jesus. That is, he was a very unique individual who had a large following, and for one reason or another his followers did believe he rose from the dead.

By the way, do you know why some historians say Jesus had only a small number of followers? Historians obviously don't get that from the gospels because the gospels say that Jesus had "multitudes" of followers.

Lots of people throughout history have been relatively obscure in their own time, only to become broadly famous and influential after their death. Consider Vincent Van Gough, for example, who was all but unknown and commercially unsuccessful during his life, but is now considered one of the most important and influential painters of all time.

Yes, that's a good point and a good example of posthumous "success," but there's a very important difference between Van Gogh and Jesus: Van Gogh's work enabled him to succeed as an artist, but Jesus never succeeded as a messiah. We can praise Van Gogh because we have his great works of art which we learned to appreciate after he was gone. However, nobody could ever point to Jesus either while he lived or since then to see that he is Israel's long-awaited Messiah. So we know why Van Gogh succeeded in his life's mission, but we do not know why Jesus became so famous despite failing his life's mission.

[Tcg]

However, nobody could ever point to Jesus either while he lived or since then to see that he is Israel's long-awaited Messiah.

Let's take a closer look:

The Messiah

Thanks to the Messiah Jesus, we have been given victory over sin and death. Read on to learn what Messiah means and how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah.

https://bibleproject.com/learn/the-messiah/

Jesus as Messiah
AN ESSAY BY
T. D. Alexander

Christian theology centers on the belief that Jesus of Nazareth is the “Christ” or “Messiah,” synonyms that highlight his status as a divinely appointed savior-king.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essa ... s-messiah/

What Proof Do You Have That Jesus is the Messiah?

What are some of the credentials of the Messiah?

The Hebrew Bible and the Jewish sages describe the Messiah in more detail than many realize. From these writings we can know his genealogical background, place of birth, the timeframe of his arrival, and other identifying characteristics. These credentials enable us to identify the Messiah and to recognize imposters. Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. Early rabbis and sages recognized all of these passages as referring to the Messiah.

In regard to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures.

https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/what-p ... he-messiah

The Glory of Christ: 5 Ways Jesus Proved He’s the Messiah

From the very beginning, God had a plan. And through hundreds of prophecies in the Old Testament, God prepared the world for the coming of His Son. Jesus really did live to die for the sins of humanity.

https://billygraham.org/story/the-glory ... e-messiah/

Jesus Christ Is the Messiah

Old Testament prophets testified of the coming Messiah—a descendant of King David who would deliver His people. Jesus Christ was “the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New” (“The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles,” Ensign or Liahona, Apr. 2000, 2). In this lesson, students will explore some of the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus Christ and discover how some individuals responded when faced with accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... he-messiah?

That's a whole lot of disagreement with your claim.


Tcg

[Paul of Tarsus]

That's a whole lot of disagreement with your claim.

I never said that Christians don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They obviously do. Why did the disciples of Christ in particular believe he was the Messiah? There is no proof that has survived to the present that any Christian can point to that Jesus is the Messiah. So how did the belief that Jesus is the Messiah originate? It seems unlikely that a man who was executed and gone could inspire people that he was the savior of the world.

And PLEASE don't tell me it's because Egypt isn't in Africa! LOL

[RightReason]

As you should know some non-Christian scholars like Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a "small time" Jewish preacher. He never rose from the dead. Nevertheless, Jesus and his life inspired the world's largest religion. If Ehrman and Crossan are right about Jesus, then we must ask how Jesus became the lasting focal point of his followers. Why did the disciples preach that he was God's right-hand man and savior of the world if they knew he had suffered an ignominious death at the hands of the Romans never to be seen again?

The pieces of this puzzle don't fit together very well. It seems likely to me that Jesus would have been very famous in his day to inspire people the way he did. On the other hand, a very famous Jesus would have probably been noticed by the historians of the early first century, yet they say nothing about him.

Any thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.

Great question and one we should ask ourselves. It is similar to C.S. Lewis’s, “Lunatic, Liar, or Lord” observation. Given that Christianity spread to every continent on the globe and this even prior to the invention of the printing press is no small thing. When reading the historical records there are of Jesus claiming to be who He claimed to be, the only thing to conclude would be He was either a lunatic, a liar, or Lord. There is no middle ground to believe He could have just been a good preacher who lived a long time ago. He couldn’t be considered good if He claimed to be the son of God if that were not true.

This thread also reminds me of this funny video:

[JehovahsWitness]

In my opinion Jesus became so well known because his followers worked tirelessly to make it so.

Why? I would speculate that is is because they genuinely believed in their cause, convinced, I believe by the first hand accounts (produced within living memory) of his (Jesus) ministry by those in a position to know.

So how did the belief that Jesus is the Messiah originate?

Probably because he told his disciple he was The Messiah.







JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

FURTHER READING: Did Jesus really exist?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... 6-october/




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