Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

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Talmid
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Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #1

Post by Talmid »

Dr. John Oakes is a Christian apologist and have been professor of Chemistry at Grossmont College. I had series of conversations with him regarding Bible and Quran. Following are some specific question/answers from our conversation:

John Oakes: Muhammad said that Jesus was not crucified, but he was crucified. He said that Jesus is not God, but he is God.

Me: First of all, Quran is NOT a word of Muhammad. It is solely attributed to God. Muhammad's words are separately collected in other writings called "Hadith". But Bible writers blended God's word with their national history, their self-made theories, philosophies and laws. Then they presented all this mixture before the people as if it were actually from God. Every historical fiction, every man-made creed, and every bye-law that had somehow entered into the Holy Book, became the "Word of God," and it was absolutely obligatory for everyone to believe in all these things and, if one did not, he was declared to be a heretic. Second, There was disagreement among early Christian sects about Jesus Crucifixion; some said "Simon of Cyrene was crucified", some said "Judas was crucified". Regarding Jesus divinity, the doctrine of the Trinity was developed by pagan-influenced theologians of 1st century. If Trinity would be central doctrine of faith, God would have taught clearly to Jews and not lead them astray.

John Oakes: What specific historical event did Muhammad predict which actually came true? None.

Me: Muhammad did correctly predict about future events. If you are interested to know, visit the link http://noor.kalemasawaa.com/english/ac/ ... es_muh.htm

John Oakes: Please give me a single definite prophecy about the Messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.

Me: According to Jewish belief, Messiah will be a human being, not a God or other supernatural being. Jews never accepted any of the claimed fulfillment of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus.

John Oakes: About Isaiah, I know when he was born, where he lived, I can tell you where Daniel lived, when he was born, when he died

Me: Okay, tell me, who was the father of Amos? where was Joel born? what was the exact date of birth of Isaiah? which year Daniel died? Can you provide details of Habakkuk's mission? when Obadiah became prophet? please don't give assumptions about their details.

John Oakes: What are the prophecies of Hud? Can you list them? What are the prophecies of Salih? When did they come true? What are the prophecies of Shoaib? Where did he live? When did he live?

Me: The main purpose of God's Prophet is to guide the people to the truth, not fortunetelling. God tells about mission of Hud to Ād (South Arabian nation) in Quran, not his prophecies. Same is about Salih and Shoaib. Bible also not recorded Jonah's prophecies. Regarding who were they, visit the links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hud_(prophet)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuaib


John Oakes: So is Hud a real person? What century did he live in? I looked up the supposed country of Ad, and it seems to be a semi-mythical place. Google does not know if it was a real place or even where it was. We have several of Jonah's prophecies recorded in the Bible. For example there is Jonah 3:4-5. Daniel predicted the career of Antiochus Epiphanes in great detail five hundred years before he lived. He described the persecution of Domitian in great historical accuracy seven hundred years before he persecuted the church.

Me: Same can be said about Biblical prophets about whom Christians nothing know except their names. Obadiah, Joel, Habakkuk..list goes on. Daniel was written around 200 BC, a posthumous writing. Does Bible recorded Jonah's prophecies to Jews specifically? No. Christianity promotes same man-God doctrine which pagans of Rome and Greece did in past.

If anyone interested to ask him question, email: john.oakes@gcccd.edu

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Re: Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #2

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Talmid wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:43 am ...
John Oakes: Please give me a single definite prophecy about the Messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.

Me: According to Jewish belief, Messiah will be a human being, not a God or other supernatural being. Jews never accepted any of the claimed fulfillment of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus.
...
I just want to show that Bible says Jesus is a man (human being. So, he didn’t fain in that part.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Talmid
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Re: Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #3

Post by Talmid »

More conversation with Dr. John Oakes:

John Oakes: Are you willing to read my book Daniel, Prophet to the Nations?

Me: I have read your book. You wrote on page 40 that "So, who is Daniel? Not much is known about his background. Unlike Isaiah or Amos or other prophets, we do not know Daniel's father." but Christians don't even know father of Amos. On page 169, it is written that "Then the angel Gabriel continues his account of the future by saying: "After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary" (v.26). The events referred to will occur after the "cutting off" (i.e. the crucifixion) of the Messiah." but according to Jewish commentary: "the anointed one will be cut off: Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain." It means Christian Scholars misinterpreted "Anointed One" with Jesus.
Moreover, Muslims don't believe that Jesus was crucified, rather he was raised to Heaven without being put on the cross. Also, there was disagreement among early Christian sects about Crucifixion of Jesus. Some held the view that the one who was crucified was someone other than Jesus (for e.g. Simon of Cyrene or Judas). Some believed that human body suffered death, while the spirit in him was taken up to heaven.


John Oakes: One thing for sure is that there was no debate among Christians in the first century about the crucifixion of Jesus. The people who were there were unanimous. John, Peter, Mary, Matthew, James, the brother of Jesus, Joanna... All of the people who were there in Jerusalem on that day agreed that Jesus was crucified, as did Pilate, Josephus, Tacitus and all reputable, reliable sources.

Me: Josephus wrote about crucifixion in his book around 93 CE and Tacitus wrote in 116 CE. Long after the times of Jesus. NT canon was established in 382 CE, centuries after Jesus and despite the traditional ascriptions, all four Gospels are anonymous and none were written by eyewitnesses.

God says in Quran:
And for their (Jews) saying, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God". In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him. Rather, God raised him up to Himself. God is Mighty and Wise. (4:157-158)

Talmid
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Re: Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #4

Post by Talmid »

Conversation continues:

John Oakes: The canon of the New Testament was established, for all practical purposes, by 150 AD. By 180 AD, the list was complete and accepted by all. All 27 New Testament books were quoted authoritatively in the first half of the second century as scripture. What happened in the fourth century was simply the rubber stamping of a canon that was over two hundred years old.

You are believing a person who was born more than 500 years later over dozens of eye-witnesses.


Me: Paul was a liar who transformed God's prophet into Deity. If Jesus was God, why he was unable to deliver successfully concept of Trinity to Jews? Why he talked vaguely? If Jesus was son of God because he was born of Virgin, Adam was more deserved to be called son of God because he had neither father nor mother.

John Oakes: Paul shows every evidence of being a great man, of making great sacrifices. He was friends of Peter and John and James. Paul could not have "transformed Jesus into deity" if he wanted to because John and Matthew and Peter were all declaring the same thing. John himself said, "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We have beheld his glory, the glory of he one and only Son of God." This is not Paul. This is the consensus of ALL the writers of the New Testament.

Those who knew Jesus were far more likely to know what he did and said, and how he died than a man living 550+ years after he died.


Me: You believed Paul who claimed to saw the Jesus (Acts 9) but you blamed Muhammad that how a person could know real event after 550 years. You are such a biased person in hatred of Islam! How do you know Paul was Apostles' friend? By the help of New Testament which is not a God's word but proclamation of falsehood and lies.

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Re: Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #5

Post by bjs1 »

Talmid wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:43 am There was disagreement among early Christian sects about Jesus Crucifixion; some said "Simon of Cyrene was crucified", some said "Judas was crucified".
I have heard Muslims make this claim before, but I have never seen any evidence to support it. As far as I can tell there was no disagreement among early Christian sects about Jesus’ Crucifixion.

Who specifically said, “Simon of Cyrene was crucified"? That claim does not seem to come up until the gnostic (non-Christian) writing the Second Treatise of the Great Seth in the third century. Christian seems to have treated it as little more than a joke.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #6

Post by Talmid »

[Replying to bjs1 in post #5]

Jesus never demanded “Crucify me”, but the Jews demanded from the Pilate, “Crucify him.” Jesus defended his case in the court, argued with the Jews, and refuted their accusations. Jesus never said, “Hurry up crucify me, for I have come, just for this purpose.” Jesus never mentioned that people’s salvation is in believing his death on the cross. Rather he promised that the heaven’s eternal life is in following and obeying the commandments of God (Matt 19:16-17).

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Re: Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #7

Post by bjs1 »

Talmid wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:41 pm [Replying to bjs1 in post #5]

Jesus never demanded “Crucify me”, but the Jews demanded from the Pilate, “Crucify him.” Jesus defended his case in the court, argued with the Jews, and refuted their accusations. Jesus never said, “Hurry up crucify me, for I have come, just for this purpose.” Jesus never mentioned that people’s salvation is in believing his death on the cross. Rather he promised that the heaven’s eternal life is in following and obeying the commandments of God (Matt 19:16-17).
While there are a lot of misleading or outright false claims here, I don’t want to follow every rabbit hole. You said that early Christians believed that either Simon of Cyrene or Judas was crucified. The only reference I know of to anything like that was from third century Gnostics, who were committed to the idea that Jesus was not a physical man and therefore could not have been crucified. But which early Christians said this?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

Talmid
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Re: Christian Apologist Dr. John Oakes and Quran

Post #8

Post by Talmid »

bjs1 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:01 pm
Talmid wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:41 pm [Replying to bjs1 in post #5]

While there are a lot of misleading or outright false claims here, I don’t want to follow every rabbit hole. You said that early Christians believed that either Simon of Cyrene or Judas was crucified. The only reference I know of to anything like that was from third century Gnostics, who were committed to the idea that Jesus was not a physical man and therefore could not have been crucified. But which early Christians said this?
Cerinthus (50-100 CE) distinguished between the man Jesus and the Christ. He taught that the Christ descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler at baptism but at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassible, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being. He was the founder of Cerinthian Sect.

Basilides taught from 117 to 138 CE and claimed to have received verbal instructions from St. Matthias the Apostle and to be a disciple of Glaucias, a disciple of St. Peter. According to him, Simon of Cyrene was crucified, for Jesus exchanged forms with him on the way. He was the founder of Basilidian Sect.

According to Irenaeus:
Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

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