How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Paul of Tarsus
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How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction? If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?

Everybody, and not just Christians, is welcome to answer these questions and engage in the discussion, of course.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

From The OP:
Paul of Tarsus wrote: In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction?
"I believe it, and how bout ol God there!"

"I don't believe it, and ain't he him Satan, him a hoot!"

Paul of Tarsus wrote: If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?
...
Does it benefit em them, them dang dirty danged libruls?


Best I can tell.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Kenisaw »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:51 pm In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction? If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?

Everybody, and not just Christians, is welcome to answer these questions and engage in the discussion, of course.
What works well for me is to read/listen to a story with my full attention (so as not to miss anything) and then examine the story with a skeptical eye. If something seems amiss, I research it to see what I can learn about it. This is often a time consuming process, but well worth it given the amount of nonsense that is put out by the legacy media and purported experts on all manner of topics.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

It's becoming danged hard to do it these days when the Internet is full of lies. I even saw an advertisement pop up (In the middle of a Bach cantata damn' their eyes) peddling the claim that mobile phones cause cancer. I had a check on that, and it's a Question of whom you go to for the validated facts. A couple of sites claiming to be an institute for cancer research turned out to be some nutjob's web-page.

In the case of religion, whom do you trust? Take the claim that extra - Biblical historians confirm the existence of Jesus. When you look at these sources, they turn out to do no such thing. Rather, they refer to the beliefs and claims of the early Christians, but they don't validate those claims in their own part. The most Foxy source is of course the Flavian testament. Josephus being a historian of his own times (supposed to have got his material about the times of Herod from Nicholaus of Damascus) inserts in between two 'misfortunes' for the Jews a short bio. of Jesus. Well, that settles the matter, doesn't it?

The problem is that some of it is obviously the work of a Christian. Even Christian apologists will recognise that 'If it be lawful to call him a man' shows that it is written by someone with the knowledge that he was supposed to be divine. Josephus (a Jew all his life) could hardly have believed that. So some of it is supposed to have been 'glossed' by a Christian editorial hand. So why not all of it? You'd expect Josephus to go into a bit more detail about this remarkable personage, but it's just this potted Bio. popped in parenthetically between two 'misfortunes' the latter of which refers back to the former. It splits them apart and it looks like a Christian editor found a mention of Pilate and thought 'This is the place' and popped his addition (which some have seen as looking like it was lifted from Luke 24.19) in there. All done with the best motives. Since Josephus, for some inexplicable reason, had forgotten to write anything about Jesus, that omission ought to be put right. I have already argued that the same motive was behind the invention of the two contradictory Nativities.

Furthermore the reference to Jesus, brother of James, (in Antiquities) also looks like a gloss by a Christian hand and the James and the Jesus 'called the Christ' are actually the sons of Damnaeus.

It is significant that Philo is not mentioned as a historical source for Jesus and he isn't (though he does mention Pilate and also tells a tale of some poor looney being mocked as a king by the street ragamuffins, which makes you wonder).

Suetonius mentions Jews causing upset in Rome 'at the instigation of Chreshtus' in the time of Claudius. But it's not at all clear that this Chreshtus was Jesus. I even wonder whether he was 'That Egyptian' Paul was mistaken for in Acts. But that's speculation.

Tacitus has always looked a convincing reference to Jesus from his own knowledge. But how I think he was just relating what the Christians were claiming, because there's a curious error that he makes. He called Pilate 'procurator'. And we know from the Pilate inscription) that he was acting as Prefect at the time. Those are both duties carried out by the Roman governor, but Prefect is military duties and 'procurator' is more to do with taxation. The first governors were Prefects and after that all procurators. So it seems that Tacitus just assumed that the governor at the time was procurator as they were in his own days. This means he hadn't checked the records and was making an assumption about the story told by the Christians.

The upshot being that it was not at all easy to tell fact from fancy here, but - with some research -it can be done. The only remaining thing is for the Christians to decide which they prefer to believe; fact or fancy.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 amWhat works well for me is to read/listen to a story with my full attention (so as not to miss anything) and then examine the story with a skeptical eye. If something seems amiss, I research it to see what I can learn about it. This is often a time consuming process, but well worth it given the amount of nonsense that is put out by the legacy media and purported experts on all manner of topics.
Good. Can you apply that type of scrutiny to Matthew 4:
18 Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He *said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.” 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, in the boat with their father Zebedee, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Does anything about this story seem unlikely to be true?

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by nobspeople »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:51 pm In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction? If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?

Everybody, and not just Christians, is welcome to answer these questions and engage in the discussion, of course.
Faith: that's how they live their lives
How it relates to their personal belief system: that's how they live their lives
From where the story comes: if it's from the bible, and they believe the bible to be 100% true, then it's true. If they believe the bible to be partly true, they refer to their faith
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Kenisaw »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:49 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 amWhat works well for me is to read/listen to a story with my full attention (so as not to miss anything) and then examine the story with a skeptical eye. If something seems amiss, I research it to see what I can learn about it. This is often a time consuming process, but well worth it given the amount of nonsense that is put out by the legacy media and purported experts on all manner of topics.
Good. Can you apply that type of scrutiny to Matthew 4:
18 Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He *said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.” 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, in the boat with their father Zebedee, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Does anything about this story seem unlikely to be true?
Nope.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by 1213 »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:51 pm In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction? If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?...
One way for me is to check is there any proof/evidence for the claim, or is the claim reasonable, logically sound.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:49 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 amWhat works well for me is to read/listen to a story with my full attention (so as not to miss anything) and then examine the story with a skeptical eye. If something seems amiss, I research it to see what I can learn about it. This is often a time consuming process, but well worth it given the amount of nonsense that is put out by the legacy media and purported experts on all manner of topics.
Good. Can you apply that type of scrutiny to Matthew 4:
18 Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He *said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.” 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, in the boat with their father Zebedee, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Does anything about this story seem unlikely to be true?
Nope.
Honestly? You just got done posting how you scrutinize stories with a skeptical eye looking for whatever may seem to be amiss. You should have noticed that when Jesus first appeared to these men, they literally dropped their work and followed him away. How likely is it that four men will drop their work and follow a stranger off to who knows where? That looks pretty amiss to me.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

1213 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:27 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:51 pm In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction? If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?...
One way for me is to check is there any proof/evidence for the claim, or is the claim reasonable, logically sound.
Assuming you believe the story of Jonah in the fish's belly to be true, what evidence do you have that a man can survive for three days in a fish's gut?

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