How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Paul of Tarsus
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How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction? If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?

Everybody, and not just Christians, is welcome to answer these questions and engage in the discussion, of course.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

nobspeople wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:24 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:51 pm In what ways do the Christians here distinguish fact from fiction? If you read or hear a story, in what ways do you tell what's true in the story and what may be false?

Everybody, and not just Christians, is welcome to answer these questions and engage in the discussion, of course.
Faith: that's how they live their lives
How it relates to their personal belief system: that's how they live their lives
From where the story comes: if it's from the bible, and they believe the bible to be 100% true, then it's true. If they believe the bible to be partly true, they refer to their faith
We're seeing proof for what you're saying on this thread. The logic goes this way:

I want the story to be true.
Conclusion: The story is true regardless of what anybody points out to me.

This approach, of course, makes it likely that even if the story contains more baloney than an Oscar Mayer packing plant, the person will believe it.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

Post #12

Post by brunumb »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:49 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 amWhat works well for me is to read/listen to a story with my full attention (so as not to miss anything) and then examine the story with a skeptical eye. If something seems amiss, I research it to see what I can learn about it. This is often a time consuming process, but well worth it given the amount of nonsense that is put out by the legacy media and purported experts on all manner of topics.
Good. Can you apply that type of scrutiny to Matthew 4:
18 Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He *said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.” 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, in the boat with their father Zebedee, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Does anything about this story seem unlikely to be true?
To me, the following seem very unlikely:
20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

brunumb wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:12 pmTo me, the following seem very unlikely:
20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Yes. Obviously. Kenisaw saw that right away. Earlier he recommended:
Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 amWhat works well for me is to read/listen to a story with my full attention (so as not to miss anything) and then examine the story with a skeptical eye. If something seems amiss, I research it to see what I can learn about it. This is often a time consuming process, but well worth it given the amount of nonsense that is put out by the legacy media and purported experts on all manner of topics.
Using his full attention reading and/or listening to the story as as to miss nothing, he examined the Bible passage with a skeptical eye. He saw that something was obviously amiss with the apostles immediately dropping their nets and in zombie-like fashion following Jesus without a word. He recognized that as in the twenty-first century so as in the the first-century, nonsense was being put out. People don't act that way in real life. Matthew's story of these apostles being recruited is a work of fiction.

So yes, Christians can tell fact from fancy.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

Post #14

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:49 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:29 amWhat works well for me is to read/listen to a story with my full attention (so as not to miss anything) and then examine the story with a skeptical eye. If something seems amiss, I research it to see what I can learn about it. This is often a time consuming process, but well worth it given the amount of nonsense that is put out by the legacy media and purported experts on all manner of topics.
Good. Can you apply that type of scrutiny to Matthew 4:
18 Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter, and his brother Andrew, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He *said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.” 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John, in the boat with their father Zebedee, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Does anything about this story seem unlikely to be true?
Nope.
Honestly? You just got done posting how you scrutinize stories with a skeptical eye looking for whatever may seem to be amiss. You should have noticed that when Jesus first appeared to these men, they literally dropped their work and followed him away. How likely is it that four men will drop their work and follow a stranger off to who knows where? That looks pretty amiss to me.
O:) I'm glad you raised that point. We can put aside John who has no calling of disciples in Galilee - he called his disciples at the Baptism, and Luke who has a different context of teaching a crowd and getting into a boar with Simon.

Matthew and Mark have the same story except that Matthew just has the boys leave their old dad with his nets and follow Jesus, but Mark says that Zebedee had hired hands to help him. This was a originally puzzle for me because, if Mark was the Original synoptic gospel, why would Matthew have left out the hired hands? It was suggested to me on my previous board that the hired hands was an addition by Mark and it all fell into place. Mark is NOT the original gospel (now lost) but it has his own editorial additions. That explains the passage about Pilate's surprise that Jesus died so quickly, which none of the others have. Mark (for reasons of his own) added it. Similarly he also noted that it was a bit cavalier of Jesus to take away Zebedee's sons and leave him high and dry. So he just adds that it was ok - he had hired help.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

Post #15

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:36 pm Matthew's story of these apostles being recruited is a work of fiction.

So yes, Christians can tell fact from fancy.
And yet Matthew is still part of Christianity's accepted canon. So much for Christians telling fact from fancy.


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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

Post #16

Post by Tcg »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:43 pm
We're seeing proof for what you're saying on this thread. The logic goes this way:

I want the story to be true.
Conclusion: The story is true regardless of what anybody points out to me.

This approach, of course, makes it likely that even if the story contains more baloney than an Oscar Mayer packing plant, the person will believe it.
Not surprisingly, this is the very same reasoning used to conclude that god/gods exist. "I want the story to be true" being the key motivation in both conclusions.


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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

Post #17

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Tcg wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:25 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:36 pm Matthew's story of these apostles being recruited is a work of fiction.

So yes, Christians can tell fact from fancy.
And yet Matthew is still part of Christianity's accepted canon. So much for Christians telling fact from fancy.
Well, we've only considered one story in Matthew. We haven't examined the rest of Matthew and the New Testament.
Tcg wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:33 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:43 pm
We're seeing proof for what you're saying on this thread. The logic goes this way:

I want the story to be true.
Conclusion: The story is true regardless of what anybody points out to me.

This approach, of course, makes it likely that even if the story contains more baloney than an Oscar Mayer packing plant, the person will believe it.
Not surprisingly, this is the very same reasoning used to conclude that god/gods exist. "I want the story to be true" being the key motivation in both conclusions.
You're maybe half right here. Although stories of gods and miracles are prevalent in theism, many theists also employ logical argumentation and evidence as justification for belief in their respective gods. Other theists might not use stories at all. I don't use stories to substantiate God, for example.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

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Post by Paul of Tarsus »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:11 pm O:) I'm glad you raised that point. We can put aside John who has no calling of disciples in Galilee - he called his disciples at the Baptism, and Luke who has a different context of teaching a crowd and getting into a boar with Simon.

Matthew and Mark have the same story except that Matthew just has the boys leave their old dad with his nets and follow Jesus, but Mark says that Zebedee had hired hands to help him. This was a originally puzzle for me because, if Mark was the Original synoptic gospel, why would Matthew have left out the hired hands? It was suggested to me on my previous board that the hired hands was an addition by Mark and it all fell into place. Mark is NOT the original gospel (now lost) but it has his own editorial additions. That explains the passage about Pilate's surprise that Jesus died so quickly, which none of the others have. Mark (for reasons of his own) added it. Similarly he also noted that it was a bit cavalier of Jesus to take away Zebedee's sons and leave him high and dry. So he just adds that it was ok - he had hired help.
Yes. You would think that the Gospel writers could at least get such a trivial story as Jesus calling the apostles to be consistent and plausible. Maybe when they were making it up they didn't know what the others were writing, and they weren't creative enough to have the apostles ask Jesus to wait until they were done fishing.

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

Post #19

Post by William »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #9]

In order for the story to be true, there have to be extraorsinary cicumstance of which the profile of Jesus fits the bill.

It is likely that the storie was presented in succinct form to engage the reader with snapshots rather than details.

Also according to one source "the devil is in the details" so one need to consider what this magician was using as.magic in order to entice grown men to drop their livelyhoods and walk behind him as the devils they were...

Perhaps Jesus showed them how he could turn things into other things...stones into money and the like...

They were simply answering the knock of opportunity...

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Re: How do Christians tell fact from fancy?

Post #20

Post by 1213 »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:38 pm ...
Assuming you believe the story of Jonah in the fish's belly to be true, what evidence do you have that a man can survive for three days in a fish's gut?
I believe the story, because I think Bible is trustworthy and it would not have that story, if it would not have happened, because there simply would be no reason to add it without it really being true. But, I don’t know enough about the “fish” to explain how it was possible.

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