Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

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Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #1

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Well, I seem to have run out of correspondents, so let's start a thread - and on my Pet Subject:- the Contradictions.

I already set out some major contradictions in the Resurrection -accounts, hinted at them in the Nativity accounts (and those are the two touchstone cases). I referred to Luke's version of the 'Rejection at Nazareth' and I think I mentioned the 'death of Judas' as a contradiction as well as being a fudged 'prophecy'.

But I think the point is made: minor contradictions aren't too important. Who said what and in what order isn't too serious. But really bad ones discredit the reliability of the gospels. It is serious when John has no angel at the tomb explaining where Jesus had gone, and Mary running back and gasping that she doesn't know where 'they' have taken him is a total refutation of the claim of a message given at the empty tomb. I also argued that Cleophas, having heard the Marys' account of this while relating that they had seen angels, specifically says that they did not see Jesus. Somebody is telling whoppers and John sides with Luke - there is no appearance of Jesus before the Marys report back to the disciples. Matthew made that one up.

But one I really like is the transfiguration. We can disentangle the added material, such as the Other feeding of 4,000 ir that improbable trip to Caesarea Philippi; it pretty much occurred over 2 days:-

Jesus and the disciples sail across lake Galilee to Bethsaida.
He feeds the crowd (of men sitting on the grass in groups of 50) with bread and fish.
He is recognised as the messiah, by his own followers at least.
He sends the disciples back to Capernaum in the boat and catches up with them, walking on the water.

And we know where the transfiguration should occur - after the recognition by Peter that Jesus is the Messiah and before the disciples return to Capernaum by boat.

So, why isn't it in John? There's no question of where it should be, but we get Jesus apparently escaping the crowd, who want to make him a king 'By force', going into the hills. Is anyone going to argue that John didn't know about the Transfiguration, or thought it not worth mentioning? He is describing what happened; why does he tell a totally different story?

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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #2

Post by William »

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. [KJV]


I suppose the first question to answer is "Was it the 'John' who wrote the Gospel of John, who was the "brother of James" who accompanied Jesus up the mountain?"

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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:05 pm

But one I really like is the transfiguration. We can disentangle the added material, such as the Other feeding of 4,000 ir that improbable trip to Caesarea Philippi; it pretty much occurred over 2 days:-

Jesus and the disciples sail across lake Galilee to Bethsaida.
He feeds the crowd (of men sitting on the grass in groups of 50) with bread and fish.
He is recognised as the messiah, by his own followers at least.
He sends the disciples back to Capernaum in the boat and catches up with them, walking on the water.

And we know where the transfiguration should occur - after the recognition by Peter that Jesus is the Messiah and before the disciples return to Capernaum by boat.

So, why isn't it in John? There's no question of where it should be, but we get Jesus apparently escaping the crowd, who want to make him a king 'By force', going into the hills. Is anyone going to argue that John didn't know about the Transfiguration, or thought it not worth mentioning? He is describing what happened; why does he tell a totally different story?

Could you clarify? What exactly are you claiming contradicts what ? (I take it it has something to do with the transfiguration, but what I cannot see what that might be) In other words could you point out something along the lines of ....
John says X but Matthew says Y: I hereby claim X =/= Y .... and therefore the two account represent a contradiction.
Could you provide an X and Y?





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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #4

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:05 pm

But one I really like is the transfiguration. We can disentangle the added material, such as the Other feeding of 4,000 ir that improbable trip to Caesarea Philippi; it pretty much occurred over 2 days:-

Jesus and the disciples sail across lake Galilee to Bethsaida.
He feeds the crowd (of men sitting on the grass in groups of 50) with bread and fish.
He is recognised as the messiah, by his own followers at least.
He sends the disciples back to Capernaum in the boat and catches up with them, walking on the water.

And we know where the transfiguration should occur - after the recognition by Peter that Jesus is the Messiah and before the disciples return to Capernaum by boat.

So, why isn't it in John? There's no question of where it should be, but we get Jesus apparently escaping the crowd, who want to make him a king 'By force', going into the hills. Is anyone going to argue that John didn't know about the Transfiguration, or thought it not worth mentioning? He is describing what happened; why does he tell a totally different story?

Could you clarify? What exactly are you claiming contradicts what ? (I take it it has something to do with the transfiguration, but what I cannot see what that might be) In other words could you point out something along the lines of ....
John says X but Matthew says Y: I hereby claim X =/= Y .... and therefore the two account represent a contradiction.
Could you provide an X and Y?





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It's this: Mark 9 2 says: After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus
. and the other synoptics say roughly the same.

John, 6.15, describing what must be the same event say this "Perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the hills by himself."

That is as different as it could be. How could John have said nothing about the transfiguration, unless he'd never heard of it?

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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:25 pm
It's this: Mark 9 2 says: After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
7 Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus
. and the other synoptics say roughly the same.

John, 6.15, describing what must be the same event say this "Perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the hills by himself."

That is as different as it could be. How could John have said nothing about the transfiguration, unless he'd never heard of it?


Okay thank you... can you explain why you conclude John 6:15 {quote} "... must be the same event" [ as Mark 9:2-8 ]?



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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #6

Post by Difflugia »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:05 pmBut I think the point is made: minor contradictions aren't too important. Who said what and in what order isn't too serious. But really bad ones discredit the reliability of the gospels.
They "aren't too important" for what? Doctrinal reliability? Historical reliability? Verbal inerrancy? Divine preservation of the text?

Different contradictions are more or less important to different Christians for different reasons. What target are you aiming at? If minor contradictions weren't important to any Christians, then there'd be no need for an entire genre of books explaining things like how Jesus cleansed the Temple twice.

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TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:05 pmSo, why isn't it in John? There's no question of where it should be, but we get Jesus apparently escaping the crowd, who want to make him a king 'By force', going into the hills. Is anyone going to argue that John didn't know about the Transfiguration, or thought it not worth mentioning? He is describing what happened; why does he tell a totally different story?
The short answer is that it's ahistorical, John recognized that, and John's theology doesn't need (or even work with) the transfiguration.

The longer answer starts with the recognition that the only Gospel for which the transfiguration truly makes sense is Mark. Mark's theology has two theophanies, one at the beginning of Jesus' ministry and one at the end. The theophany at the baptism in Mark 1:9-11 is a private and for Jesus alone. God announces to Jesus alone that he has been chosen and adopted as the messianic Son; "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." The theophany at the transfiguration is God's annunciation to the disciples that Jesus has been the messiah and his work will soon be concluded. Remember that in Mark's Gospel, the disciples are effectively idiots and never quite get it on their own that Jesus is the Son of God. God now tells them (and us as the readers) that it will soon be up to them (and us) to carry on the work of the Son; "This is my beloved Son; listen to him." The two events bracket the divine mandate of Jesus and indicate the shift of the mandate onto the Christian readers of Mark.

In John's theology, there are two main reasons that there is no transfiguration.

The first reason is that Jesus as the Son and Logos is the only mediator between the Father and man and that duty is never shifted onto the disciples. In Mark, the job of Jesus is to deliver the message of repentance and faithfulness, but in John, the message is that Jesus is himself the light and salvation of humanity. When Jesus disappears in Mark, his disciples must now continue on as the new messengers. In John, Jesus always was the message, so there is no change in their overall mandate that God needs to tell them about.

The second reason is that in John's Gospel, there are no theophanies. The Father doesn't speak to men from heaven because Jesus is the only mediator between the Father and humanity. The baptism theophany is shriveled to John the Baptist seeing the Spirit alight on Jesus and there's no voice to communicate from the Father to either Jesus or the witnesses; Jesus himself is the only mediator, the possessor of the very Voice of God.

tl;dr: It's fiction, John knew it was fiction, and he wrote a different story.
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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #7

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:40 pmOkay thank you... can you explain why you conclude John 6:15 {quote} "... must be the same event" [ as Mark 9:2-8 ]?
You have a history of asking for more and more justification of others' positions without actually presenting your own. Now that you know what TRANSPONDER's position is, even if not the full reasoning behind it, would you mind telling us up front what claim you're making as a show of good faith?
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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #8

Post by William »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #6]

That is the thing about stories and authors. Natural at that, too.

John does give the reader a whole other perspective to bath in. Assuming he is the same "Beloved Disciple" his take on things went through particular filters associated with the relationship he had with Jesus - itself filtered through his particular attitudes, beliefs, world view and subconscious intention.

Perter, as a different example, could never have written the same way as John. Peter was quick to anger - "Shoot first and to hell with the questions" and more than a few time he was pulled up by Jesus on account of his thoughtless rash behavior.

Matthew was a tax gatherer, so someone who was willing to sell out his fellows for a bit more straw in his mattress. Jesus came along and gave him something better to think about.

Most of the time folk don't really appreciate how unique we each are as we group together in fair approximates and arm the bastions against others so obviously different.

Now - Just because John didn't mention the Transfiguration...does not mean he was not there at the time or that it did not happen.

Jesus was revealing some of the content of his 'bag of tricks' to some of his disciples but not to others. At least, in the earlier stages of his mission.

The idea of planting seeds is to see what will grow from the different strains. People get too hung up on seeming contradictions. It is somewhat sad enough when non-theists do this for the sake of trying to make a case of the bible being false.
It is even sadder still when Christians are seeing contradictions in one another. And what is that type of contradiction other than the acknowledgement that "they" are not like "us"? Sad, because they didn't get the point John was making about Jesus.

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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #9

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:25 pm ...It's this: Mark 9 2 says: ....
John, 6.15, describing what must be the same event say this...
Sorry, I don’t see any good reason to think they are about the same thing.

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Re: Contradictions in the NT - and does it matter?

Post #10

Post by Difflugia »

William wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:54 pmNow - Just because John didn't mention the Transfiguration...does not mean he was not there at the time or that it did not happen.
This isn't TD&D, so just because the Synoptics mentioned it doesn't mean that it did happen.

The main reason the Beloved Disciple is traditionally considered to be John in the first place is because of the disciples otherwise not mentioned (he only names Peter, Andrew, Philip, Nathaniel, and Thomas), John is the only one that, again by tradition, wasn't dead yet when the Gospel was likely written. Modern consensus is that it was written by an unknown member of a later "Johannine school" of Jewish Christians.
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