Rituals within religion - why?

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nobspeople
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Rituals within religion - why?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Face one direction to pray.
Wearing specific pieces of clothing at specific times.
Eating specific foods.
Not eating specific foods.
Killing of animals as offerings.
Adorning the blood of an innocent animal around a door.

The list is almost endless as, within many religions, there are certain 'things' people can do or don't do, often at specific times and or for specific reasons. Some seem odd, some ridiculously stupid and others just don't make any logical sense (such is religion - there's little logic within it). But people do them because 'they're supposed to' because they 'represent' this or that.

While rituals do tend to 'help' (be it the passing of time, a sense of belonging, synchronizing of heart rates, etc), when dealing with a supreme being, what benefit do they have for it?

Surely, said being knows all (even knowing things about you that are absent in your own consciousness), so what difference does it make, to this being, what you wear when, why you face this direction instead of that, blood of an innocent animal (which is highly barbaric)?

What point do these things serve to this being?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #41

Post by Diagoras »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:24 am Biblically God favors his own children over and above the wicked with whom he does not have an intimate relationship.
I’m having a hard time reconciling the ‘selfless love’ of this god on the one hand, with apparently having different attitudes to his ‘own children’ than to the wicked. Does God not love the wicked? Does he disown them? Ignore them?

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #42

Post by William »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:04 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:24 am Biblically God favors his own children over and above the wicked with whom he does not have an intimate relationship.
I’m having a hard time reconciling the ‘selfless love’ of this god on the one hand, with apparently having different attitudes to his ‘own children’ than to the wicked. Does God not love the wicked? Does he disown them? Ignore them?
Pandoras Box.
Image

General impression is that 'the wicked' are a useless commodity as they are not malleable enough to work with...too free spirited and easily lead by their own thinking, wherever they want to go. Like the Goats - who are more work than the Sheep and have the tendency to climb barriers and go their own Sovereign way...

But also included in 'the wicked' are those who harm others purposefully...without good reason.

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #43

Post by William »

One could also argue that conditional love is ritualistic...

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #44

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:04 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:24 am Biblically God favors his own children over and above the wicked with whom he does not have an intimate relationship.
I’m having a hard time reconciling the ‘selfless love’ of this god on the one hand, with apparently having different attitudes to his ‘own children’ than to the wicked. Does God not love the wicked? Does he disown them? Ignore them?
Yes.

PSALMS 5:5

No arrogant person may stand in your presence. You hate all those who behave wickedly

Biblically God does not consider the wicked his children (1 John 3:10; Hebrews 12:8). He does not love wicked people, he HATES them. He does disown them, he ignores their prayers and if they remain incorrigibly so, he will kill them.

Any questions?








RELATED POSTS
What does the bible say God will do to wicked people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 34#p944434

Is KILLING compatible with LOVE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p952839


Go to other posts related to ARMAGEDDON, DEATH and ...KILLING
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #45

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:41 am
Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:04 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:24 am Biblically God favors his own children over and above the wicked with whom he does not have an intimate relationship.
I’m having a hard time reconciling the ‘selfless love’ of this god on the one hand, with apparently having different attitudes to his ‘own children’ than to the wicked. Does God not love the wicked? Does he disown them? Ignore them?
Yes.

PSALMS 5:5

No arrogant person may stand in your presence. You hate all those who behave wickedly

Biblically God does not consider the wicked his children (1 John 3:10; Hebrews 12:8). He does not love wicked people, he HATES them. He does disown them, he ignores their prayers and if they remain incorrigibly so, he will kill them.

Any questions?








RELATED POSTS
What does the bible say God will do to wicked people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 34#p944434

Is KILLING compatible with LOVE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p952839


Go to other posts related to ARMAGEDDON, DEATH and ...KILLING
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #45]

John 8:44

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”


[LINK]

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #46

Post by peterkp »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:48 pm What point do these things serve to this being?
It seems to me as a Christian that rituals are for our benefit, not God's.

This thread has many particular examples, and no doubt for any of us who is on the outside there will be cases in which it is hard to understand the point of the ritual. I include myself in that; I could name some Old Testament Jewish rituals that don't make sense to me. But I try to treat them with a gracious attitude, assuming that if I lived in that time and context they would have made sense.

What I can do however is offer a couple of examples which are meaningful to me, and describe why I participate in them.

1. Communion. This ritual is a retelling of the story of Jesus, in particular his death. Christians share in this ritual as a visual way of remembering what Jesus has done for them. The story could always be told through words alone, but pictures are a powerful way of reinforcing the message. Different traditions have an overall similarity but different details of process, such as the frequency or the nature of the bread and wine. These variations can be cultural; they can also result from an emphasis on different parts of the story. Personally I don't think any of those variations matter, and I find it helpful to have a balance of consistency and variety. That way the ritual draws on the rich Christian heritage of communion, but remains fresh to me.

2. Physical posture. We are physical as well as rational beings. Physical attitude can support the rational side of our spiritual life. For example, kneeling to pray helps us focus on the humility before God that prayer calls for. By gathering to worship together in person we encourage one another and build relationships.

None of this is necessary. Nor do we always perform our rituals for the best reasons or motives. But if we take time to think we can discover the ideal principles involved, and understand better how they benefit us.

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #47

Post by nobspeople »

peterkp wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:22 am
nobspeople wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:48 pm What point do these things serve to this being?
It seems to me as a Christian that rituals are for our benefit, not God's.

This thread has many particular examples, and no doubt for any of us who is on the outside there will be cases in which it is hard to understand the point of the ritual. I include myself in that; I could name some Old Testament Jewish rituals that don't make sense to me. But I try to treat them with a gracious attitude, assuming that if I lived in that time and context they would have made sense.

What I can do however is offer a couple of examples which are meaningful to me, and describe why I participate in them.

1. Communion. This ritual is a retelling of the story of Jesus, in particular his death. Christians share in this ritual as a visual way of remembering what Jesus has done for them. The story could always be told through words alone, but pictures are a powerful way of reinforcing the message. Different traditions have an overall similarity but different details of process, such as the frequency or the nature of the bread and wine. These variations can be cultural; they can also result from an emphasis on different parts of the story. Personally I don't think any of those variations matter, and I find it helpful to have a balance of consistency and variety. That way the ritual draws on the rich Christian heritage of communion, but remains fresh to me.

2. Physical posture. We are physical as well as rational beings. Physical attitude can support the rational side of our spiritual life. For example, kneeling to pray helps us focus on the humility before God that prayer calls for. By gathering to worship together in person we encourage one another and build relationships.

None of this is necessary. Nor do we always perform our rituals for the best reasons or motives. But if we take time to think we can discover the ideal principles involved, and understand better how they benefit us.
The it would stand to reason that, people would eliminate all these rituals and have a zero impact on their worship and spirituality, no?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #48

Post by Diagoras »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:41 amBiblically God does not consider the wicked his children (1 John 3:10; Hebrews 12:8). He does not love wicked people, he HATES them. He does disown them, he ignores their prayers and if they remain incorrigibly so, he will kill them.

Any questions?
Is this an ‘either/or situation? A person is either ‘one of his children’ or ‘wicked’? Or is there a middle ground for non-wicked, non-child people? Would I be classified as wicked for just coveting money (I regularly check my share portfolio), as well as material pleasures? Surely that counts as breaking a Commandment.

***

You stress that God hates wicked people, and that he disowns them, or in extreme cases, kills them. Does this still apply to the present day, or were you simply referring to biblical sources, such as the brief mention of Er, who was slain for being wicked in Genesis?

What happens to wicked people when they die (whether by natural causes or divine retribution)? It seems to me that God would prefer wicked people to repent and turn to him, rather than continue in wicked ways. Is he just waiting and hoping for that when faced with a serial murderer/coveter? But if he’s omniscient through all of time and space, he should know in advance whether someone wasn’t going to repent - so why not kill them straight away (since he hates them) and save the lives of future victims?

Is God content to let all these people sin and be listening to Satan? He seems so set on demanding worship and sacrifices, and having his word spread around the world to ‘all men’, and yet his churches and their rituals appear to be dwindling in number and influence. Has he given up?

I’ve probably got a few dozen more related questions, but appreciate that you might not have time to do them all justice in one sitting. Maybe just the first paragraph answered for now (above the asterisks) would be fine.

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #49

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:41 amBiblically God does not consider the wicked his children (1 John 3:10; Hebrews 12:8). He does not love wicked people, he HATES them. He does disown them, he ignores their prayers and if they remain incorrigibly so, he will kill them.

Any questions?
Is this an ‘either/or situation? A person is either ‘one of his children’ or ‘wicked’?

Yes, biblically, one is either one or the other. No gray area, no fence to sit on.
Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pm
You stress that God hates wicked people, and that he disowns them, or in extreme cases, kills them. Does this still apply to the present day, or were you simply referring to biblical sources, such as the brief mention of Er, who was slain for being wicked in Genesis?

I believe everything applies to today except for the killing of incorrigibly wicked. If you read carefully you will see I said ..... He WILL kill them, not he has or he does.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:41 am .... if they [the wicked] remain incorrigibly so, he will kill them
Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pm What happens to wicked people when they die (whether by natural causes or divine retribution)?
If God judges them as incorrigibly so, according to scripture, they simply remain dead (non-existent) forever.



RELATED POSTS
What does the bible say God will do to wicked people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 34#p944434

Is KILLING compatible with LOVE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p952839
To learn more please go to other posts related to ARMAGEDDON, KILLING and ... BIBLE "HELL",
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:36 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Rituals within religion - why?

Post #50

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pm It seems to me that God would prefer wicked people to repent and turn to him, rather than continue in wicked ways.
I agree.
EZEKIEL 33:11 - New Living Translation

As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?

Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pmIs he just waiting and hoping for that when faced with a serial murderer/coveter?
I do not understand this question, but the bible says God is indeed waiting and hoping the wicked will change their ways.
Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pm
Is God content to let all these people sin and be listening to Satan?
No I dont believe he is at all. The bible says the following ....
2 PETER 3:9 NWT

Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
Diagoras wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:24 pm
But if he’s omniscient through all of time and space, he should know in advance whether someone wasn’t going to repent - so why not kill them straight away (since he hates them) and save the lives of future victims?

That would be one way to go but He is under no obligation to do the above. Scripturally he has chosen another route. Namely to wait and see what choices they make and act accordingly. In the meantime, no permanent harm can be inflicted on their innocent victims .






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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, OMNISCIENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:44 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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