Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

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Paul of Tarsus
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Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #1

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

If you're familiar with Christianity at all, then you're unlikely to be told anything that you can falsify about it. Consider the following format for a claim that can be falsified:

Do A.
B should result if you do A.
If B is not the result of doing A, then you know that "B should result if you do A" has been falsified.


The Christian version on its claims takes this format:

Do A.
Supernatural event B (miracle, revelation, etc.) will result if you do A.
If B is not the result of doing A, then believe "Supernatural event B (miracle, revelation, etc.) will result if you do A" anyway. It's your own fault that B didn't happen because you are a faithless sinner and/or God has a plan that does not involve B for you.


The claim is then deemed to be true regardless of the outcome of A.

Another Christian version I've seen recently takes yet another format:

Do A which as far as you can tell has never been done or cannot be done.
Supernatural event B (miracle, revelation, etc.) will result if you do A.


Of course this claim cannot be falsified because doing A is impossible!

So why are all Christian claims unfalsifiable?

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #51

Post by otseng »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:15 pm OK, but again, your claim is not a Christian claim. I should add that although your claim is strictly speaking falsifiable, you've set the bar so high that for practical purposes it might as well be unfalsifiable.
It's a Christian claim in the sense it's based on the Bible and is a core belief of mine.

I don't see how the bar is set very high, all someone has to demonstrate is extraterrestrial life exists. If you consider that to be an impossible task, then might has well throw out the entire SETI program. Or forget about searching for life on Mars or any planet.
13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[a] for anything, I will do it.
If you object to this kind of theology, then you should take it up with Jesus.
Yes, there are various interpretations of this. It depends on how one interprets "in my name". Does it mean we can magically invoke the name of Jesus and things will automatically happen? Are the "name-it claim-it" crowd correct and if we have enough faith, then we can have fancy houses and heal everyone?
A good example of a falsifiable claim is this: Heat water to 100 degrees Celsius, and it will boil. All you need to do is heat the water, check its temperature when it boils, and see if that temperature is 100 degrees Celsius or not. Anybody with a stove, pan, and cooking thermometer can easily falsify this claim. You can prove it in your kitchen. Are there any such Christian claims?
No and yes. The Bible is primarily written as history, so I believe that's how it should mostly be approached. But, it does make some physical claims that I believe can be tested. The Bible claims the entire world was covered by a flood. If one believes this literally, then this claim would fall under it.
Your question is loaded because it assumes that events are necessarily verifiable.
Yes, I do assume that.
Did you ever notice that the gospel writers never mention the location and precise time of the resurrection?
I don't see how that's relevant. Simply falsifying Jesus was resurrected is sufficient, regardless where or when he was resurrected.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #52

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Difflugia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:05 pm...your challenge was to present passages of the Bible that have been falsified. Since you didn't qualify it, I took that to mean to a a reasonable standard, even if Christians implicitly make the challenge to an unreasonable standard.
Please remember that this is a debate forum, so you need to argue for your position on any point of view that is being contested. So if you wish to conclude that the Bible includes falsifiable claims that have been falsified by science, you need to argue for why we should accept the conclusion that some scientists have falsified those claims.

I should point out that many Christian apologists do argue that science has not falsified the Bible; they don't just reject the idea without bothering to apply reasoning. Here's the basic argument that many apologists use to fend off science-based Bible critiques:

1. Many scientists, in particular those who critique the Bible, are natural men (and women) who are unable to understand God's ways.
2. Seeing the truth of Bible stories and doctrines requires an understanding of God's ways (spiritual discernment).
Conclusion: The supposed falsification of some Bible stories is based on ignorance and then is not valid.

You can reject the truth of the two premises, but this argument is logically valid. It's an argument that demonstrates that Biblical stories and doctrines cannot be falsified by science if you believe in the Christian God.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #53

Post by Realworldjack »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:31 am
Difflugia wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:05 pm...your challenge was to present passages of the Bible that have been falsified. Since you didn't qualify it, I took that to mean to a a reasonable standard, even if Christians implicitly make the challenge to an unreasonable standard.
Please remember that this is a debate forum, so you need to argue for your position on any point of view that is being contested. So if you wish to conclude that the Bible includes falsifiable claims that have been falsified by science, you need to argue for why we should accept the conclusion that some scientists have falsified those claims.

I should point out that many Christian apologists do argue that science has not falsified the Bible; they don't just reject the idea without bothering to apply reasoning. Here's the basic argument that many apologists use to fend off science-based Bible critiques:

1. Many scientists, in particular those who critique the Bible, are natural men (and women) who are unable to understand God's ways.
2. Seeing the truth of Bible stories and doctrines requires an understanding of God's ways (spiritual discernment).
Conclusion: The supposed falsification of some Bible stories is based on ignorance and then is not valid.

You can reject the truth of the two premises, but this argument is logically valid. It's an argument that demonstrates that Biblical stories and doctrines cannot be falsified by science if you believe in the Christian God.

What is recorded in the New Testament, is not in any way science. Rather, it certainly seems to be claimed historical events. Science, can in not way demonstrate if claimed historical events have occurred. Rather, science can only tell us if these claimed historical events are scientifically possible. Science, absolutely, and clearly has demonstrated that it is scientifically impossible, for a dead person to be raised from death after 3 days. However, this in no way demonstrates that the claimed event did not take place. Rather, it simply tells us that if such an event did in fact take place, science would not be able to explain such an event.

So then, either one believes that science, can, and does have all the answers. Or, one understands that while science certainly has a role, that role is limited.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #54

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

otseng wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:30 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:15 pm OK, but again, your claim is not a Christian claim. I should add that although your claim is strictly speaking falsifiable, you've set the bar so high that for practical purposes it might as well be unfalsifiable.
It's a Christian claim in the sense it's based on the Bible and is a core belief of mine.
How is it a Christian claim to say what you would do with your faith if life on other planets was discovered? I don't know of any Bible passage that rules out life on other planets.
I don't see how the bar is set very high, all someone has to demonstrate is extraterrestrial life exists.
NASA has been trying to find ET for decades with no luck. Our best scientists and billions of dollars have been invested. It looks like a tough job to me.
If you consider that to be an impossible task, then might has well throw out the entire SETI program. Or forget about searching for life on Mars or any planet.
It's not an impossible job, of course, but it's so hard that frankly you appear to have erected a bulwark to safeguard your faith.
Yes, there are various interpretations of this. It depends on how one interprets "in my name". Does it mean we can magically invoke the name of Jesus and things will automatically happen? Are the "name-it claim-it" crowd correct and if we have enough faith, then we can have fancy houses and heal everyone?
You tell me. It's your religion. If a passage like John 14:13-14 is that hard to figure out, then it looks to be unfalsifiable to me. You can't falsify what you cannot understand.
A good example of a falsifiable claim is this: Heat water to 100 degrees Celsius, and it will boil. All you need to do is heat the water, check its temperature when it boils, and see if that temperature is 100 degrees Celsius or not. Anybody with a stove, pan, and cooking thermometer can easily falsify this claim. You can prove it in your kitchen. Are there any such Christian claims?
No and yes. The Bible is primarily written as history, so I believe that's how it should mostly be approached. But, it does make some physical claims that I believe can be tested. The Bible claims the entire world was covered by a flood. If one believes this literally, then this claim would fall under it.
Geologists cannot really test for a global flood but would gather data to see if one ever occurred. But whatever data is uncovered, Christians can come up with some way to argue against it, and many do just that. Like I explained to Diff, if people believe in an all-mighty God, a wily Devil, and "natural people" who cannot understand spiritual matters, then the logic that follows from those premises rules out anybody using science to falsify Bible stories and doctrines.
Did you ever notice that the gospel writers never mention the location and precise time of the resurrection?
I don't see how that's relevant.
You mentioned that Bible stories typically include those details. They often don't include important details, actually.
Simply falsifying Jesus was resurrected is sufficient, regardless where or when he was resurrected.
The story of Christ's resurrection is written in such a way as to make it unfalsifiable. We can't even check his supposedly empty tomb. The disciples, who passionately preached the resurrection hoping dearly to let everybody know that Jesus had vacated that tomb alive again, for some strange reason never bothered to record the tomb's whereabouts. You would think they would want people to go take take a look. But as you say, we need not bother with such trivialities.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #55

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #50]
A good example of a falsifiable claim is this: Heat water to 100 degrees Celsius, and it will boil. All you need to do is heat the water, check its temperature when it boils, and see if that temperature is 100 degrees Celsius or not. Anybody with a stove, pan, and cooking thermometer can easily falsify this claim. You can prove it in your kitchen. Are there any such Christian claims?
I couldn't resist this one. Water boils at 100C only at sea level. Do that experiment in Denver, CO and you'll find that the water boils (ie. the internal pressure of the liquid H2O reaches the external atmospheric pressure) at a temperature lower than 100C (about 94.4C in this case, hence you must boil your eggs for longer). So this claim is an example of one that needs additional information in order to falsify it or confirm it (ie. atmospheric pressure).

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boil ... _1344.html

At least it is a scientific claim though, and one that can be quantified unambiguously with sufficient information. A lot of biblical claims are not so cut and dry, although some are (eg. Noah's flood).
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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #56

Post by Tcg »

DrNoGods wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:03 pm
I couldn't resist this one. Water boils at 100C only at sea level. Do that experiment in Denver, CO and you'll find that the water boils (ie. the internal pressure of the liquid H2O reaches the external atmospheric pressure) at a temperature lower than 100C (about 94.4C in this case, hence you must boil your eggs for longer). So this claim is an example of one that needs additional information in order to falsify it or confirm it (ie. atmospheric pressure).

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boil ... _1344.html

At least it is a scientific claim though, and one that can be quantified unambiguously with sufficient information. A lot of biblical claims are not so cut and dry, although some are (eg. Noah's flood).
My sister moved to Colorado Springs many years ago and had to adjust the timing in some of her recipes due to this. I also remember in 9th grade physical science class using plastic tubing connected to a tapped water faucet to create a vacuum in a small beaker. We were able to cause water in that beaker to boil at room temperature.


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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #57

Post by Difflugia »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:31 amPlease remember that this is a debate forum, so you need to argue for your position on any point of view that is being contested.
Your condescension notwithstanding, I assure you that I do.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:31 amSo if you wish to conclude that the Bible includes falsifiable claims that have been falsified by science, you need to argue for why we should accept the conclusion that some scientists have falsified those claims.
I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. You've already said that you agree with the science to which I'm referring, so are you looking to have a science debate as devil's advocate? I told you what specifically is wrong with the "table of nations," so are you claiming I'm wrong about that? Or are you claiming that in general early Genesis as written (rather than as presented by apologists) isn't falsifiable in principle to a scientific standard? I don't know what specifically it is you've "contested."

I agree that apologists make unfalsifiable arguments about the Bible, but that's different than the Bible being unfalsifiable to reasonable scientific or historical standards. You seemed to be conflating the two, though, and when I tried to point that out, you just seemed to be confused about why I'm not conflating them, too.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:31 amI should point out that many Christian apologists do argue that science has not falsified the Bible; they don't just reject the idea without bothering to apply reasoning. Here's the basic argument that many apologists use to fend off science-based Bible critiques:

1. Many scientists, in particular those who critique the Bible, are natural men (and women) who are unable to understand God's ways.
2. Seeing the truth of Bible stories and doctrines requires an understanding of God's ways (spiritual discernment).
Conclusion: The supposed falsification of some Bible stories is based on ignorance and then is not valid.
That's a Christian argument. As far as that goes, I agree that you've supported your original claim. It's not a claim borne by any reasonable reading of the Bible, though.
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:31 amYou can reject the truth of the two premises, but this argument is logically valid. It's an argument that demonstrates that Biblical stories and doctrines cannot be falsified by science if you believe in the Christian God.
No, it's an argument that Christians make unfalsifiable claims about a falsifiable and falsified Bible. My argument with you in this thread has always been that Christian claims and claims inferred by reading the Bible are not conflatable, but you've repeatedly followed your valid and supported argument that Christians make unfalsifiable claims with the fallacious non sequitur that therefore the Bible is also unfalsifiable.
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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #58

Post by otseng »

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:18 pm How is it a Christian claim to say what you would do with your faith if life on other planets was discovered? I don't know of any Bible passage that rules out life on other planets.
I'm not going to get into my arguments here since it's not entirely relevant, but I can discuss it in the other thread.
It's not an impossible job, of course, but it's so hard that frankly you appear to have erected a bulwark to safeguard your faith.
I would not say it's "hard", but I would agree its improbable. But, that's because its consistent with my belief no alien life exists. However, believing that the universe should be full of life makes it inconsistent that finding life is highly improbable.
You tell me. It's your religion. If a passage like John 14:13-14 is that hard to figure out, then it looks to be unfalsifiable to me. You can't falsify what you cannot understand.
There is no requirement that every statement in the Bible needs to be falsifiable, including this one.
Geologists cannot really test for a global flood but would gather data to see if one ever occurred. But whatever data is uncovered, Christians can come up with some way to argue against it, and many do just that.
And from my perspective, it's the same for those who do not believe in a flood. One can present all this evidence for a global flood and yet dismissed by mainstream geologists.
The story of Christ's resurrection is written in such a way as to make it unfalsifiable. We can't even check his supposedly empty tomb.
It might be harder for us to check on his tomb, but the resurrection account was written down not long after the event was claimed to have taken place. It would have been highly risky for them to make such a statement when the readers lived near and during that time.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #59

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:26 am
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:31 amPlease remember that this is a debate forum, so you need to argue for your position on any point of view that is being contested.
Your condescension notwithstanding, I assure you that I do.
I didn't mean to be condescending. I'm just pointing out that if you want to falsify Bible stories using science, then it's not enough just to assert that the Bible is wrong and science is right. Obviously, not everyone agrees with that premise. An argument is no better than the truth of its premises, and if there is a lack of agreement on the truth of a premise, then the argument may be unsound.
You've already said that you agree with the science to which I'm referring, so are you looking to have a science debate as devil's advocate? I told you what specifically is wrong with the "table of nations," so are you claiming I'm wrong about that?
Yes, I agree with the science you posted, or at least I have no reason to doubt it. You appear to me to be correct about the science. And no, I'm not really interested in playing God's advocate or playing anything. I'm just pointing out that scientific critiques of the Bible are no more sound than the underlying assumptions in those critiques. If your argument assumes that God doesn't exist to pull off a global flood, then you are assuming an unproved belief.
Or are you claiming that in general early Genesis as written (rather than as presented by apologists) isn't falsifiable in principle to a scientific standard?
If you assume that science is correct, then you can falsify Genesis using science at least some parts of Genesis and what it implies. Otherwise, you're not getting anywhere with your polemics.
1. Many scientists, in particular those who critique the Bible, are natural men (and women) who are unable to understand God's ways.
2. Seeing the truth of Bible stories and doctrines requires an understanding of God's ways (spiritual discernment).
Conclusion: The supposed falsification of some Bible stories is based on ignorance and then is not valid.
That's a Christian argument. As far as that goes, I agree that you've supported your original claim. It's not a claim borne by any reasonable reading of the Bible, though.
You cannot logically invalidate an argument by labeling it as a product of people you disagree with. Even Christians can use valid logic and sometimes do, and as I have already pointed out, the argument's logic is valid which is to say the conclusion follows from the premises. The challenge for anybody who disagrees with the conclusion is to demonstrate that the premises are false. That's where you come in. Can you falsify the argument's premises?

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #60

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

otseng wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:30 am
It's not an impossible job, of course, but it's so hard that frankly you appear to have erected a bulwark to safeguard your faith.
I would not say it's "hard", but I would agree its improbable. But, that's because its consistent with my belief no alien life exists. However, believing that the universe should be full of life makes it inconsistent that finding life is highly improbable.
We don't know if the universe is full of life. Even if it was, finding that life is made difficult by the distances between stars. The distance to Alpha Centauri, the star closest to our solar system, is 25,615,494,432,000 miles. That's the least distance that any skeptic needs to travel to falsify your claim. I'd say that anybody going at least that far is about impossible. You've put 25,615,494,432,000+ miles between your claim and its falsification.
If a passage like John 14:13-14 is that hard to figure out, then it looks to be unfalsifiable to me. You can't falsify what you cannot understand.
There is no requirement that every statement in the Bible needs to be falsifiable, including this one.
I like falsifiable claims. That way I can check to see if I'm being lied to. Do you prefer claims that are invulnerable to disproof? If you want to believe the Bible, I can see why you would prefer claims that cannot be falsified.
Geologists cannot really test for a global flood but would gather data to see if one ever occurred. But whatever data is uncovered, Christians can come up with some way to argue against it, and many do just that.
And from my perspective, it's the same for those who do not believe in a flood. One can present all this evidence for a global flood and yet dismissed by mainstream geologists.
So are geologists "natural men" who cannot understand the things of God?

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