Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

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Paul of Tarsus
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Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #1

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

If you're familiar with Christianity at all, then you're unlikely to be told anything that you can falsify about it. Consider the following format for a claim that can be falsified:

Do A.
B should result if you do A.
If B is not the result of doing A, then you know that "B should result if you do A" has been falsified.


The Christian version on its claims takes this format:

Do A.
Supernatural event B (miracle, revelation, etc.) will result if you do A.
If B is not the result of doing A, then believe "Supernatural event B (miracle, revelation, etc.) will result if you do A" anyway. It's your own fault that B didn't happen because you are a faithless sinner and/or God has a plan that does not involve B for you.


The claim is then deemed to be true regardless of the outcome of A.

Another Christian version I've seen recently takes yet another format:

Do A which as far as you can tell has never been done or cannot be done.
Supernatural event B (miracle, revelation, etc.) will result if you do A.


Of course this claim cannot be falsified because doing A is impossible!

So why are all Christian claims unfalsifiable?

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #31

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

1213 wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:02 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:40 pm ...
God creating the earth is an unfalsifiable claim. Whether we can observe the earth or not, we cannot know that God didn't create it. Even if we could not observe the earth, it might still exist somewhere we didn't look, and therefore not observing the earth does not and cannot falsify the claim that God created it.
That is why I think the whole idea of falsification is pointless and can’t be used really in this kind of debate. There is always possibility to say that there is some other option.
I can certainly understand your feeling that way. If I was a Christian, I wouldn't be enthusiastic about this debate either. But for me at least, the debate is going very well. The fact that as you say there are many alternate explanations to what Christianity claims, makes Christian claims unproved which is a whole other debate. In this debate no Christian can offer an example of a Christian claim that is not unfalsifiable. I think that's great!

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #32

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

First, people who profess to be Christian (which does not necessarily mean that they ARE Christian), make falsifiable claims all the time.

The claim 'the bible is inerrant' is a falsifiable claim. Just find an error.

The claim 'the bible is inerrant' in its original documents is falsifiable if one can find original documents and if there is an error in them.

(People will disagree on whether or not something is an actual error, but that is the case in pretty much every aspect of life. You can provide all the evidence you want to someone that the earth is not flat, if they don't want to see it, they won't see it.)


I am not concerned about something being falsifiable, mind you. I am concerned with truth. Something being unfalsifiable does not mean that it is not true. I came across the following link and thought others might find it interesting: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/falsifiability/

For me, as a Christian, I care about what Christ says, because He (is and) speaks the truth. So I hold all claims that people and religions make, up to Him. In that respect, many claims become provable/disprovable within the faith (in Christ), according to whether or not they contradict Him. If someone says that Christ wants you to curse your enemies... well that claim is disproved if He teaches otherwise. (I tell you, love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you, bless those who curse you, etc...)

Paul of Tarsus wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:12 pm
Diagoras wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:56 pm I consider the problem’s with ‘B’, not ‘A’. When ‘B’ in this scenario is along the lines of:

‘You will have eternal life in heaven’, or

‘The Day of Judgement will happen... soon’

Neither are verifiable - either by virtue of always being in the future (and ‘retconned’ to a further future date as appropriate), or the experimenter not able to reliably confirm the state of affairs once dead.
Yes. Those are two examples of unfalsifiable Christian claims. The only way a promise can be falsifiable is that a time for its fulfillment must be specified (among other criteria). As we all know, we are normally not told when Christ will return, and if we are told the time, then the claim is falsified when Christ again fails to show up.
Diagoras wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:00 am A good example from another thread:
tam wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:02 pm It would be evidence against a resurrection of mankind having already happened. But not against a future resurrection.
Yes. Tam's logic inspired my starting this thread. Claiming a future resurrection of the dead is, as I explain above, unfalsifiable as long as the time of that resurrection is not specified, and Tam never specified the time.


I did not give a date, but I have specified when that is supposed to happen, if not on that thread then on others. (Please also note that my response above was a rejection of a claim, not just some random claim of my own.) The first resurrection: when Christ returns. The second resurrection: at the end of "the thousand years" after Christ returns (I do not know if that is a literal-to-the-day time, or just a significant period of time).

The issue you have would actually be with the statement that Christ will return. No date is given for this. Some things are given to watch for, but even then, the day and hour is not known.

The only way I can see anyone disproving that statement (that Christ will return) would be to prove that Christ never existed to begin with. The reason I have faith for this future resurrection is because Christ teaches it (and His own resurrection is proof - to me, to anyone who knows Him and that He is alive even today - of the resurrection to come.)

Though there is certainly supporting evidence that other peoples believed in a resurrection (such as the Egyptians), and that is quite interesting as well.

Most Christians including Christ himself (if we can believe what we are told about him) are careful to never make falsifiable claims. As we are told in Acts 1:
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
He made a falsifiable claim right there. "But you will receive power when holy spirit comes upon you...."

YOU might not be able to disprove that statement, because it was a statement from two thousand years ago made to other people, and you do not know what happened with them. But that claim was falsifiable then, if holy spirit did not come upon them.
You would think that Christ telling his followers the time would have been very helpful to them.
Not if He didn't know it ("But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father").


**

Many of the things that Christ said one could/would do require faith (in Him, in His Father). Therefore you have to have faith (even if just a little) in order for those things that are based on faith to occur. Such as Peter walking on water (yes, I'm sure many of you do not believe that ever happened, but as an example of faith and doubt). Peter was able to walk on water due to faith. But the moment he got scared, and doubted (lack of faith), he began to sink.



Peace again to you.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #33

Post by Difflugia »

tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pmThe claim 'the bible is inerrant' is a falsifiable claim. Just find an error.
As we've seen repeatedly in discussions in these forums, this is equivocating a bit. In the ways that most peopleuse and understand language, that's true, "the Bible is inerrant" is falsiable, and it has, in fact, been falsified. In practice, however, inerrantists use language in unorthodox ways to prevent errors from being described as such. Inerrancy can be presented in ways that are falsifiable and it's trivially easy to falsify when it is. Any presentation of Biblical inerrancy that hasn't been falsified is almost certainly unfalsifiable in practice and probably in priniciple.
tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pmThe claim 'the bible is inerrant' in its original documents is falsifiable if one can find original documents and if there is an error in them.
Since the likelihood of finding an "original document" is vanishingly small, this is not falsifiable in practice, even if it is in principle. It's like claiming that Santa Claus lives in the next star system over and all one has to do is go there and look. The star system exists and is finite, so someone could in principle travel there (if one had the means) and search the whole thing (if one lived long enough). The claim is unfalsifiable in practice, though.
tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pmI am not concerned about something being falsifiable, mind you. I am concerned with truth. Something being unfalsifiable does not mean that it is not true. I came across the following link and thought others might find it interesting: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/falsifiability/
It just means that we have no way of actually knowing if it's true. We can't say that an unfalsifiable thing isn't true, but in the absence of any evidence, it's no more likely to be true than any other speculation. "God is real" is on par with "Santa Claus has a summer home on Proxima Centauri b" in terms of probability. It's possible, we can't prove otherwise (at least not now), but we have no good reason for thinking so. From the article you linked:
The criteria we use for judging theories are how good they are at accounting for the data, not how pretty or seductive or intuitive they are.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #34

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Difflugia wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:17 pm
tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pmThe claim 'the bible is inerrant' is a falsifiable claim. Just find an error.
As we've seen repeatedly in discussions in these forums, this is equivocating a bit. In the ways that most peopleuse and understand language, that's true, "the Bible is inerrant" is falsiable, and it has, in fact, been falsified. In practice, however, inerrantists use language in unorthodox ways to prevent errors from being described as such. Inerrancy can be presented in ways that are falsifiable and it's trivially easy to falsify when it is. Any presentation of Biblical inerrancy that hasn't been falsified is almost certainly unfalsifiable in practice and probably in priniciple.
Sure, but if something being falsifiable depends upon no one coming up with justifications, then probably nothing in the universe can be falsifiable.
tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pmThe claim 'the bible is inerrant' in its original documents is falsifiable if one can find original documents and if there is an error in them.
Since the likelihood of finding an "original document" is vanishingly small, this is not falsifiable in practice, even if it is in principle. It's like claiming that Santa Claus lives in the next star system over and all one has to do is go there and look. The star system exists and is finite, so someone could in principle travel there (if one had the means) and search the whole thing (if one lived long enough). The claim is unfalsifiable in practice, though.
But IF someone found an original document and it contained error, then it would be proven false. So it is falsifiable. At some point, original documents existed.
tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pmI am not concerned about something being falsifiable, mind you. I am concerned with truth. Something being unfalsifiable does not mean that it is not true. I came across the following link and thought others might find it interesting: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/falsifiability/
It just means that we have no way of actually knowing if it's true.


If that is the meaning of falsifiable, then all claims that Christians make are falsifiable: simply by one going to the source (Christ) to find out what is or is not true. Ask Him. If one is unwilling or unable to ask and listen (due to a lack of faith or something else), but there is indeed a means to confirm if something is true or false, then the claim is falsifiable - going by what you said here. And I agree with that.
From the article you linked:
The criteria we use for judging theories are how good they are at accounting for the data, not how pretty or seductive or intuitive they are.
I have no disagreement with that quote, though I would probably put more importance on intuitive than it seems they are placing on it. But I would not put any importance AT ALL on pretty or seductive (I would be even more wary, in fact, of such things).



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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #35

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

[Replying to tam in post #33]

If you want a full, honest, and sensible response, then I want a full, honest, and sensible answer to my question.
tam wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:02 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:05 pmWhat did you do to need forgiveness?
None of your business.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #36

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:48 pm [Replying to tam in post #33]

If you want a full, honest, and sensible response, then I want a full, honest, and sensible answer to my question.
tam wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:02 pm
Paul of Tarsus wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:05 pmWhat did you do to need forgiveness?
None of your business.
Lol, and what makes you think that is your business? Because as far as I can see, you got an appropriate answer, and you even had that answer explained to you on the thread from which this quote came.


I do not care if you respond to my post or not. So you do as you see fit. No problem-o.


Peace still to you.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #37

Post by Paul of Tarsus »

Difflugia wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:17 pm
tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pmThe claim 'the bible is inerrant' is a falsifiable claim. Just find an error.
As we've seen repeatedly in discussions in these forums, this is equivocating a bit. In the ways that most peopleuse and understand language, that's true, "the Bible is inerrant" is falsiable, and it has, in fact, been falsified.
Can you post an example of something the Bible claims that has been falsified?
In practice, however, inerrantists use language in unorthodox ways to prevent errors from being described as such. Inerrancy can be presented in ways that are falsifiable and it's trivially easy to falsify when it is. Any presentation of Biblical inerrancy that hasn't been falsified is almost certainly unfalsifiable in practice and probably in priniciple.
From what I've studied in the Bible, there's almost nothing in it that as far as I know can be falsified. The Bible is so vague, strange, and ambiguous, that testing it is almost impossible. Is the resurrection of Christ an error? Is Jonah wrong when he said he spent three days in a whale's belly? Did Moses err when he wrote that Noah built an ark? Is it a mistake to say that at the Last Supper Christ told his apostles that one of them is a devil? If we are told to find an error in a set of works written like the Bible is written to falsify the claim that the Bible is inerrant, then we are asked to do what is probably impossible. If it is impossible to determine if the claim that the Bible is inerrant is false, then it's an unfalsifiable claim.

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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #38

Post by JoeyKnothead »

tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:56 pm ...
The claim 'the bible is inerrant' is a falsifiable claim. Just find an error.
...
Edit: I forgot the link: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV)
biblestudymanuals wrote:[Gen 30:25-43]:
...
(v. 37) Jacob, however, took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond and plane trees and made white stripes on them by peeling the bark and exposing the white inner wood of the branches.

(v. 38) Then he placed the peeled branches in all the watering troughs, so that they would be directly in front of the flocks when they came to drink. When the flocks were in heat and came to drink,

(v. 39) they mated in front of the branches. And they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted.
Here ya go.

That ain't how genetics works.
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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #39

Post by tam »

Peace to you Joey!!

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #39]

I was thinking more along the lines of contradictions (both cannot be true; one must be in error). I don't think many people believe the account with Jacob and sheep intends to convey that sticks determine genetics (though some might, who knows?)

Just to be clear, I do not claim that the bible is inerrant. There are errors (translation errors for one, such as multiple words with different meanings - hades/sheol; gehenna; tartarus - that have all been translated into the one word 'hell'). But 'the bible is inerrant' is a claim that some make that can be falsified by finding errors.



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Re: Christian claims are unfalsifiable.

Post #40

Post by JoeyKnothead »

tam wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:34 pm Peace to you Joey!!

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #39]

I was thinking more along the lines of contradictions (both cannot be true; one must be in error). I don't think many people believe the account with Jacob and sheep intends to convey that sticks determine genetics (though some might, who knows?)

Just to be clear, I do not claim that the bible is inerrant. There are errors (translation errors for one, such as multiple words with different meanings - hades/sheol; gehenna; tartarus - that have all been translated into the one word 'hell'). But 'the bible is inerrant' is a claim that some make that can be falsified by finding errors.



Peace again to you!
And I bid a thousand peaces to you.

I reckon I misread the intent of your post, but will contend the passage is indicative of error.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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