Was the story of Job, in the bible, a real story (God really allowed these things to happen to Job) or was it a story meant to convey a message?
If it was to convey a message, what's the message?
If it was a real story, why did God have to do this if he knew Job's character?
Additionally, how do Christians reconcile the Christian view of Job with Job in other religions? Or do they?
Job
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
- 1213
- Savant
- Posts: 11476
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
- Location: Finland
- Has thanked: 327 times
- Been thanked: 374 times
Re: Job
Post #61He didn’t kill anyone.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:16 amPerhaps1213 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:04 pmIt seems to me that it was a lesson for us.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:43 pm ...If God knows better than Satan, then why does he have to prove that point? And to whom?
...
But surely, God could get the point across in means others than killing someone else.
But, it is interesting, where the people who were allowed to be killed, guilty for something that has death penalty? I believe God would not have allowed it, if they would have been like Job.
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Job
Post #621213 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:27 amHe didn’t kill anyone.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:16 amPerhaps1213 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:04 pmIt seems to me that it was a lesson for us.nobspeople wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:43 pm ...If God knows better than Satan, then why does he have to prove that point? And to whom?
...
But surely, God could get the point across in means others than killing someone else.
But, it is interesting, where the people who were allowed to be killed, guilty for something that has death penalty? I believe God would not have allowed it, if they would have been like Job.
Someone with a mortal soul lost their live for a spoiled brat of a god to prove a point, rather he did it or allowed it is semantics and an excuse - a gross excuse.
But, when someone needs to love and protect God and his name so much they're excuse and justify anything, ignoring the morality they so often pontificate about, it's just as telling of the individual as it is the deity in question.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- We_Are_VENOM
- Banned
- Posts: 1632
- Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
- Has thanked: 76 times
- Been thanked: 58 times
Re: Job
Post #63No, you have to believe that God EXISTS in order to have faith in him.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:27 am I've always found the concept of faith, in the bible, disconcerting.
You have to believe in God to have faith in it
No surprises there.
You are equivocating the word "faith". The way you use the term in the first quote is different than how use it in the above quote.To believe in God, you need faith
In the above quote, "faith" isn't use in the context of "belief without evidence" (how it is normally depicted), but rather, it is used in the context (and is synonymous with) " trust".
Because obviously, you can believe in God without having faith (trust) in him.
Just ask the Israelites during the time of Moses.
When you take away the equivocation, you take away the "circular reasoning".It's pretty terrible circular reasoning TBH
Genetic fallacy.Best I can tell, after decades living as a Christian, faith is a means to keep people under control without providing them any knowledge on the subject at hand.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!
- Purple Knight
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3519
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
- Has thanked: 1140 times
- Been thanked: 733 times
Re: Job
Post #64Yes. I don't believe right and wrong can even exist unless there is moral authority: One person who is simply right if he disagrees with another about morality. I've outlined why I think this must be the case.brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:54 amAre you suggesting that killing Job's family to win a bet is acceptable?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:37 pm I don't think we want a world where all sacrifices for any purpose are permitted, but at the same time you're going to have a difficult time arguing against the idea that a higher being can simply (and morally) sacrifice a lower one to its whims unless you're a vegetarian.
Well, we do it all the time. We kill countless animals in laboratory experiments just to prove what the truth is. As a scientist I understand that proving the truth is important, but ultimately it doesn't matter the reason.
Infinite power. If God has the power to do anything, then he has the power to do that. This is the keystone of my argument, and I don't see how anyone's going to break it. I don't happen to personally like it any more than you probably do but I don't see how, logically, infinite power could exclude this particular power. Gene Grey has telekinesis, All-Might has super strength, Purple Knight has super intelligence, and God can alter the fabric of morality.
How it works is like asking if God used a giant humidifier to cause the flood. He had the power to cause the flood. He caused the flood. He has the power to cause floods. We don't get to know how it works.
Now, this doesn't mean infinite power is possible. If you're saying that to alter the fabric of morality (or indeed, create it) is impossible, you're just saying infinite power is impossible, and also that God is impossible, and that's a valid stance.
However, if there is some entity floating around with literally infinite power, it can alter the fabric of morality because it can do anything. And sadly, that does seem to mean that we all just have to obey its moral edicts even if we disagree, or else we're the immoral ones. Not everything I conclude using logic is something I enjoy having to think about.
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6627 times
- Been thanked: 3222 times
Re: Job
Post #65Exactly how does he do it? By what criteria was the act deemed evil to begin with and what does God actually do to make it a good act? Since God is permanently hidden, just how does God effect the change?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:47 pm Infinite power. If God has the power to do anything, then he has the power to do that.
Trying to figure out how a fictional character works is a little crazy in my opinion. What that character does is simply a reflection of what its creator does. In a sense God is nothing more than a puppet.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
- JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2572 times
Re: Job
Post #66Um, brunumb, this is awkward, and I hate to ask, but I done made me a bet, and, well, so now I'm gonna need you to hold still and not put you up a fuss, but I gotta kill ya. I know, I know, it sounds goofy and all, but here we are.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:03 pmOh, well, I guess that makes getting killed in order for someone to win a bet perfectly OK.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:03 pmWe will all die sometime. Just a matter of when, and how.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
-
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3187
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
- Has thanked: 1510 times
- Been thanked: 824 times
Re: Job
Post #67[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #64]
That may not be the way you use the term 'faith' but that's how I use it as I personally don't trust anything the bible says simply because it's so extraordinary. To believe it I need faith in it. And thus, to believe in God I need to have faith in not only God but the bible. I have seen nothing to indicate either are 100% true, accurate.
The way you use the term in the first quote is different than how use it in the above quote. "faith" isn't use in the context of "belief without evidence" (how it is normally depicted), but rather, it is used in the context (and is synonymous with) " trust".
That may not be the way you use the term 'faith' but that's how I use it as I personally don't trust anything the bible says simply because it's so extraordinary. To believe it I need faith in it. And thus, to believe in God I need to have faith in not only God but the bible. I have seen nothing to indicate either are 100% true, accurate.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
- Purple Knight
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3519
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
- Has thanked: 1140 times
- Been thanked: 733 times
Re: Job
Post #68I don't know. I just know that infinite power would, by definition, include that power.brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:42 pmExactly how does he do it? By what criteria was the act deemed evil to begin with and what does God actually do to make it a good act? Since God is permanently hidden, just how does God effect the change?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:47 pm Infinite power. If God has the power to do anything, then he has the power to do that.
Just for the sake of argument, let's say right and wrong are outside of God's power, but God has infinite powers except for that. Alright, fine, so here's what he does if he wants to genocide a people for the benefit of his people: He creates an entirely new universe exactly the same as the old, except that the Jews aren't in it and the Amalekites are all robots. They're flesh robots that don't have consciousness. He then transports the Jews to the new universe without their knowledge and commands them to kill the Amalekites. They do so, and no wrong is done. Not one actual murder was committed. The Jews killed things that looked and acted like people, but weren't. So the new world learns a lesson about not messing with the Jews with no force actually used.
So infinite power even without the power over right and wrong would present as power over right and wrong if the omnipotent being was determined enough. So why is simply saying God actually has that power such a stretch?
If right and wrong are seemingly immutable, written into the fabric of the universe, a being with infinite power can make alterations to that part of the universe. Saying it can't do that is like saying it can't change any of the other constants.
So now we're back on it's fiction. If it's fiction then the character God simply has whatever powers the authour wishes, that's the canon, and that's all there is. In the context of the story, God is good because the authour has established that it has the power to be good.
Remember we're in the Christianity forum. Would you go to a Star Trek forum and just start on it's ridiculous and no you can't travel faster than light? There is no purpose to discussing a fictional universe unless you concede that the rules of that universe, apply to that universe.
- We_Are_VENOM
- Banned
- Posts: 1632
- Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
- Has thanked: 76 times
- Been thanked: 58 times
Re: Job
Post #69Fair enough. It is a 3 step process.nobspeople wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:15 am That may not be the way you use the term 'faith' but that's how I use it as I personally don't trust anything the bible says simply because it's so extraordinary. To believe it I need faith in it. And thus, to believe in God I need to have faith in not only God but the bible. I have seen nothing to indicate either are 100% true, accurate.
1. Find out if there are any good reasons to believe that God exist. Before we can answer the question of "which God", we need to first find out of God exists in the first place (such a being).
2. Once that is established, we need to find out which God. If you are interested in Christianity, you will need to do some homework and find out if the New Testament can be considered a reliable/credible source of history.
3. That will be followed by whether the Resurrection of Jesus Christ can be considered a historical fact.
Plenty information is out there on all 3, and I can provide you with resources for all. No preaching or evangelizing...we are going straight for the gusto.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6627 times
- Been thanked: 3222 times
Re: Job
Post #70Exactly. And, if God is a real entity, then how do we know it has any of the attributes we usually associate with our fictional God? Why should it be omnipotent, or omniscient or omnianything? The universe and everything within it could exist and behave as it does quite independent of any God figure.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:54 pm So now we're back on it's fiction. If it's fiction then the character God simply has whatever powers the authour wishes, that's the canon, and that's all there is. In the context of the story, God is good because the authour has established that it has the power to be good.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.