Job

[nobspeople]

Was the story of Job, in the bible, a real story (God really allowed these things to happen to Job) or was it a story meant to convey a message?

If it was to convey a message, what's the message?

If it was a real story, why did God have to do this if he knew Job's character?


Additionally, how do Christians reconcile the Christian view of Job with Job in other religions? Or do they?

[Purple Knight]

I suppose evil people will read it the exact opposite way good people will. Perhaps that's the point.

Its not a matter of being evil, its just a matter of being determined to make God look bad even if that means ignoring the values in the actual narrative.

I'm not determined to make God look bad at all. And furthermore I understand such a thing is a contradiction in terms. If God is fictional then those are simply the facts of the established lore - God = good by definition. And if God is real, and all-powerful, one of the powers it must have is to make any of its actions good.

This particular instance is about half of people seeing an old woman and half of people seeing a young one.



I am not the only one who sees the hag. And the hag doesn't equal a bad or wrong value, at least from where I sit, which is probably why I see the hag in the first place. But I can sort of see the young girl, too.

In another thread, you said that we should prefer the power that gives us things because it clearly cares about us. Adam and Eve ought to have preferred God's instructions to the Serpent's because God loved them and protected them and gave them a beautiful place to live. Now, this doesn't imply the opposite: That we should turn away from those who abuse or mistreat us, but when I disagreed with you in that thread, it was because I don't believe being doted on and favoured should mean I return those favours, either with worship, or with other favours. To me this is the seed of evil behaviours like racism, nepotism, and even pure and simple hate.

So from Job's perspective I agree he did everything right. He ought not turn away from abuse and mistreatment. If the person above him is right to abuse and mistreat him, either because it serves some higher purpose or because he deserves to be abused and mistreated, he should repay that abuse with loyalty.

It's just that from the perspective of being told the story, that it was basically a bet between God and Lucifer, God won a bet and in the process, destroyed something of infinite value. Now you may say, Job's soul was not destroyed; it went to Heaven. So be it. But there is a value to being alive, where we are tested, that is lost in a higher plane when the test is over. Living Job had unique value.

God looks bad based on his own merit.

That's logically impossible. If it's fiction, the established rules of that universe of fiction are that God = good. And if it's fact that some all-powerful entity is indeed filling the role of God of the Bible, one of the powers it must have is to simply snap its fingers and make any or all of its actions into good and morally righteous actions.

The only way the entity described in the Bible can possibly be evil or bad is if it's all real - everything in the Bible actually happened and is truth - except that the entity in question doesn't actually have that particular power. Now the only way that can be true is if that entity is lying to us on purpose, because if someone else is lying or mistaken about that entity's powers, that given set of powers no longer describes the actual entity. This is a bit confusing, but if I say Purple Knight is an accomplished NBA superstar, I'm still intentionally describing myself; I'm just lying like a dog. If someone else says Purple Knight is an NBA superstar, they have created a fiction - a gmork; a lie - and are describing their own fiction. I've nothing to do with that fiction. I just happen to have the same name.

This ties into a lot of what William says about how we might be getting lied to and why.

But nevermind me. I'm far too deep into insane fan theories and applying my craziness and conspiracy theories to black holes because the writers never intended such nonsense, and at the end of the day, I do believe it's fiction.

[brunumb]

God looks bad based on his own merit.

That's logically impossible. If it's fiction, the established rules of that universe of fiction are that God = good.

If God is fiction, he may be good by definition, but his actions reflect the morality of the people who created him. There is a subjective judgment involved. An invented God is therefore not necessary good even if that was the intention of his creators.

[Purple Knight]

God looks bad based on his own merit.

That's logically impossible. If it's fiction, the established rules of that universe of fiction are that God = good.

If God is fiction, he may be good by definition, but his actions reflect the morality of the people who created him. There is a subjective judgment involved. An invented God is therefore not necessary good even if that was the intention of his creators.

That's like saying Jedis don't have any powers because those powers are impossible. Saying such a thing is ignoring the artistic liberty of every writer, and in fact ignoring the fiction itself. There's no point in even discussing any fiction, ever, unless you're willing to accept that the rules of that universe apply to that universe.

Nor does it necessarily reflect on the writers. Creating a universe in which a being is good by definition and then does what would otherwise be evil things (though note that in that universe good doesn't even exist conceptually without God) is simply a very good thought experiment. Since it works so well as one, I want to hold off on assuming the writers didn't intend it.

I don't even accept that our universe functions differently and morality exists independently of the Most Moral Being's judgment. Unless morality is totally subjective and therefore completely useless, when two people disagree about morality, one is wrong. Now, either some beings are specially privileged to define right and wrong, or it's a vote. If it's a vote, then the Nazis were (or at least, could have been) right to kill Jews. So reductio ad absurdum of everything else, some beings must have special moral privilege.

[brunumb]

There's no point in even discussing any fiction, ever, unless you're willing to accept that the rules of that universe apply to that universe.

OK, that's fine, as long as you don't try to project those rules into our universe. God is not good, in our universe. The Bible proves it.

[JehovahsWitness]

I suppose evil people will read it the exact opposite way good people will. Perhaps that's the point.

Its not a matter of being evil, its just a matter of being determined to make God look bad even if that means ignoring the values in the actual narrative.

I'm not determined to make God look bad at all.

Did I say you were?

[JehovahsWitness]

God looks bad based on his own merit.

No he doesn't.

Just ask Job's first set of children.

I can't and neither can you.

...their dead thanks to God's vain need to win a bet.

That is not why they are dead.

Might makes right is the value taught in this myth.

No it is not.

[1213]

...If God knows better than Satan, then why does he have to prove that point? And to whom?
...

It seems to me that it was a lesson for us.

Torture an innocent man and kill his family just as a lesson to us? ...

I think the lesson was to allow Satan to show what kind of person he is.

[1213]

...
You left out: God is willing to torture and kill for petty reasons.

Please tell why do you believe so?

It's in the Bible. Read it for yourself. Best not to wear your Bible-glasses that help you interpret away all the bad stuff God does.

I don’t think there is anything about God torturing and killing for petty reasons. If you think there is, please show the scriptures.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Oh, well, I guess that makes getting killed in order for someone to win a bet perfectly OK.

Are you a vegetarian or vegan? I doubt it. In your life, how many chickens, cows, or pigs were slaughtered in order to satisfy your appetite?

Of course, I can provide more substantial reasonings for your little critique...but I want to play around with that one for now.

That one is fun.

[brunumb]

Oh, well, I guess that makes getting killed in order for someone to win a bet perfectly OK.

Are you a vegetarian or vegan? I doubt it. In your life, how many chickens, cows, or pigs were slaughtered in order to satisfy your appetite?

Of course, I can provide more substantial reasonings for your little critique...but I want to play around with that one for now.

That one is fun.

I'm guessing that you are perfectly ok with druglords and gangsters killing whole families just to instil fear and make their point. Oh, well, that might explain why you worship such a deity.