Job

[nobspeople]

Was the story of Job, in the bible, a real story (God really allowed these things to happen to Job) or was it a story meant to convey a message?

If it was to convey a message, what's the message?

If it was a real story, why did God have to do this if he knew Job's character?


Additionally, how do Christians reconcile the Christian view of Job with Job in other religions? Or do they?

[1213]

...If God knows better than Satan, then why does he have to prove that point? And to whom?
...

It seems to me that it was a lesson for us.

Perhaps
But surely, God could get the point across in means others than killing someone else.

He didn’t kill anyone.

But, it is interesting, where the people who were allowed to be killed, guilty for something that has death penalty? I believe God would not have allowed it, if they would have been like Job.

[nobspeople]

...If God knows better than Satan, then why does he have to prove that point? And to whom?
...

It seems to me that it was a lesson for us.

Perhaps
But surely, God could get the point across in means others than killing someone else.

He didn’t kill anyone.

But, it is interesting, where the people who were allowed to be killed, guilty for something that has death penalty? I believe God would not have allowed it, if they would have been like Job.

Someone with a mortal soul lost their live for a spoiled brat of a god to prove a point, rather he did it or allowed it is semantics and an excuse - a gross excuse.
But, when someone needs to love and protect God and his name so much they're excuse and justify anything, ignoring the morality they so often pontificate about, it's just as telling of the individual as it is the deity in question.

[We_Are_VENOM]

I've always found the concept of faith, in the bible, disconcerting.
You have to believe in God to have faith in it

No, you have to believe that God EXISTS in order to have faith in him.

No surprises there.

To believe in God, you need faith

You are equivocating the word "faith". The way you use the term in the first quote is different than how use it in the above quote.

In the above quote, "faith" isn't use in the context of "belief without evidence" (how it is normally depicted), but rather, it is used in the context (and is synonymous with) " trust".

Because obviously, you can believe in God without having faith (trust) in him.

Just ask the Israelites during the time of Moses.

It's pretty terrible circular reasoning TBH

When you take away the equivocation, you take away the "circular reasoning".

Best I can tell, after decades living as a Christian, faith is a means to keep people under control without providing them any knowledge on the subject at hand.

Genetic fallacy.

[Purple Knight]

I don't think we want a world where all sacrifices for any purpose are permitted, but at the same time you're going to have a difficult time arguing against the idea that a higher being can simply (and morally) sacrifice a lower one to its whims unless you're a vegetarian.

Are you suggesting that killing Job's family to win a bet is acceptable?

Yes. I don't believe right and wrong can even exist unless there is moral authority: One person who is simply right if he disagrees with another about morality. I've outlined why I think this must be the case.

Why would God even entertain such a contest in the first place?

Well, we do it all the time. We kill countless animals in laboratory experiments just to prove what the truth is. As a scientist I understand that proving the truth is important, but ultimately it doesn't matter the reason.

Also, I don't understand how God can perform an evil act and then snap his celestial fingers and make it good. How exactly does that work?

Infinite power. If God has the power to do anything, then he has the power to do that. This is the keystone of my argument, and I don't see how anyone's going to break it. I don't happen to personally like it any more than you probably do but I don't see how, logically, infinite power could exclude this particular power. Gene Grey has telekinesis, All-Might has super strength, Purple Knight has super intelligence, and God can alter the fabric of morality.

How it works is like asking if God used a giant humidifier to cause the flood. He had the power to cause the flood. He caused the flood. He has the power to cause floods. We don't get to know how it works.

Now, this doesn't mean infinite power is possible. If you're saying that to alter the fabric of morality (or indeed, create it) is impossible, you're just saying infinite power is impossible, and also that God is impossible, and that's a valid stance.

However, if there is some entity floating around with literally infinite power, it can alter the fabric of morality because it can do anything. And sadly, that does seem to mean that we all just have to obey its moral edicts even if we disagree, or else we're the immoral ones. Not everything I conclude using logic is something I enjoy having to think about.

[brunumb]

Infinite power. If God has the power to do anything, then he has the power to do that.

Exactly how does he do it? By what criteria was the act deemed evil to begin with and what does God actually do to make it a good act? Since God is permanently hidden, just how does God effect the change?

Trying to figure out how a fictional character works is a little crazy in my opinion. What that character does is simply a reflection of what its creator does. In a sense God is nothing more than a puppet.

[JoeyKnothead]

It wasn't very rich for Job's first set of children. In fact, they were all dead.
Tcg

We will all die sometime. Just a matter of when, and how.

Oh, well, I guess that makes getting killed in order for someone to win a bet perfectly OK.

Um, brunumb, this is awkward, and I hate to ask, but I done made me a bet, and, well, so now I'm gonna need you to hold still and not put you up a fuss, but I gotta kill ya. I know, I know, it sounds goofy and all, but here we are.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #64]

The way you use the term in the first quote is different than how use it in the above quote. "faith" isn't use in the context of "belief without evidence" (how it is normally depicted), but rather, it is used in the context (and is synonymous with) " trust".

That may not be the way you use the term 'faith' but that's how I use it as I personally don't trust anything the bible says simply because it's so extraordinary. To believe it I need faith in it. And thus, to believe in God I need to have faith in not only God but the bible. I have seen nothing to indicate either are 100% true, accurate.

[Purple Knight]

Infinite power. If God has the power to do anything, then he has the power to do that.

Exactly how does he do it? By what criteria was the act deemed evil to begin with and what does God actually do to make it a good act? Since God is permanently hidden, just how does God effect the change?

I don't know. I just know that infinite power would, by definition, include that power.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say right and wrong are outside of God's power, but God has infinite powers except for that. Alright, fine, so here's what he does if he wants to genocide a people for the benefit of his people: He creates an entirely new universe exactly the same as the old, except that the Jews aren't in it and the Amalekites are all robots. They're flesh robots that don't have consciousness. He then transports the Jews to the new universe without their knowledge and commands them to kill the Amalekites. They do so, and no wrong is done. Not one actual murder was committed. The Jews killed things that looked and acted like people, but weren't. So the new world learns a lesson about not messing with the Jews with no force actually used.

So infinite power even without the power over right and wrong would present as power over right and wrong if the omnipotent being was determined enough. So why is simply saying God actually has that power such a stretch?

If right and wrong are seemingly immutable, written into the fabric of the universe, a being with infinite power can make alterations to that part of the universe. Saying it can't do that is like saying it can't change any of the other constants.

Trying to figure out how a fictional character works is a little crazy in my opinion. What that character does is simply a reflection of what its creator does. In a sense God is nothing more than a puppet.

So now we're back on it's fiction. If it's fiction then the character God simply has whatever powers the authour wishes, that's the canon, and that's all there is. In the context of the story, God is good because the authour has established that it has the power to be good.

Remember we're in the Christianity forum. Would you go to a Star Trek forum and just start on it's ridiculous and no you can't travel faster than light? There is no purpose to discussing a fictional universe unless you concede that the rules of that universe, apply to that universe.

[We_Are_VENOM]

That may not be the way you use the term 'faith' but that's how I use it as I personally don't trust anything the bible says simply because it's so extraordinary. To believe it I need faith in it. And thus, to believe in God I need to have faith in not only God but the bible. I have seen nothing to indicate either are 100% true, accurate.

Fair enough. It is a 3 step process.

1. Find out if there are any good reasons to believe that God exist. Before we can answer the question of "which God", we need to first find out of God exists in the first place (such a being).

2. Once that is established, we need to find out which God. If you are interested in Christianity, you will need to do some homework and find out if the New Testament can be considered a reliable/credible source of history.

3. That will be followed by whether the Resurrection of Jesus Christ can be considered a historical fact.

Plenty information is out there on all 3, and I can provide you with resources for all. No preaching or evangelizing...we are going straight for the gusto.

[brunumb]

So now we're back on it's fiction. If it's fiction then the character God simply has whatever powers the authour wishes, that's the canon, and that's all there is. In the context of the story, God is good because the authour has established that it has the power to be good.

Exactly. And, if God is a real entity, then how do we know it has any of the attributes we usually associate with our fictional God? Why should it be omnipotent, or omniscient or omnianything? The universe and everything within it could exist and behave as it does quite independent of any God figure.