Job

[nobspeople]

Was the story of Job, in the bible, a real story (God really allowed these things to happen to Job) or was it a story meant to convey a message?

If it was to convey a message, what's the message?

If it was a real story, why did God have to do this if he knew Job's character?


Additionally, how do Christians reconcile the Christian view of Job with Job in other religions? Or do they?

[Purple Knight]

And, if God is a real entity, then how do we know it has any of the attributes we usually associate with our fictional God? Why should it be omnipotent, or omniscient or omnianything? The universe and everything within it could exist and behave as it does quite independent of any God figure.

You're talking about mega-entities like the kind we see on Star Trek such as Q, or Trelane, or Melllvar. Why any of them should ever be called God is beyond me. They don't have anything to do with morality. Q is... vaguely helpful. Sometimes. Sort of. But he's not God. And why not? Well, because he doesn't have the morality power.

Now imagine there was an otherwise weak, mortal entity, but it did have the morality power. It could alter, or in fact create, good and evil. That would be God. And if it was weak and mortal, the last thing it said before it died would be morality, inscribed forever on the universe and no one able to change it, unless someone else was born with that power.

Now, I won't let the atheist side define God out of existence. That's as ridiculous as defining God into existence. Either it exists or it doesn't, and the truth is we don't really know. Not for sure. And when we talk about possible, we're talking about an entity with the morality power, not necessarily any other powers. No other powers would make something God. And this one would.

[nobspeople]

That may not be the way you use the term 'faith' but that's how I use it as I personally don't trust anything the bible says simply because it's so extraordinary. To believe it I need faith in it. And thus, to believe in God I need to have faith in not only God but the bible. I have seen nothing to indicate either are 100% true, accurate.

Fair enough. It is a 3 step process.

1. Find out if there are any good reasons to believe that God exist. Before we can answer the question of "which God", we need to first find out of God exists in the first place (such a being).

2. Once that is established, we need to find out which God. If you are interested in Christianity, you will need to do some homework and find out if the New Testament can be considered a reliable/credible source of history.

3. That will be followed by whether the Resurrection of Jesus Christ can be considered a historical fact.

Plenty information is out there on all 3, and I can provide you with resources for all. No preaching or evangelizing...we are going straight for the gusto.

Thanks for the response.
To your points:
1) Sure, there is a good reason (for me, anyway) to believe
2) Did it for decades
3) I don't consider many actions (raising of the dead, casting out of demons, burning talking bush that's not consumed, walking on water, etc) of the bible historical fact based on my experience

[We_Are_VENOM]

To your points:
1) Sure, there is a good reason (for me, anyway) to believe

Are you a deist?

2) Did it for decades

Have you for say, the last 15 years?

3) I don't consider many actions (raising of the dead, casting out of demons, burning talking bush that's not consumed, walking on water, etc) of the bible historical fact based on my experience

Based on your experience of those kinds of things not happening?

[nobspeople]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #74]

Are you a deist?

I', not big into labels, but I believe in the possibility of a supreme deity, though the biblical god I don't believe in as it doesn't make much sense.

Have you for say, the last 15 years?

If you mean from 2006-now, no. I kicked Christianity to the curb long before 2006

Based on your experience of those kinds of things not happening?

I have not seen any nor any proof of them being attributed to God.

[We_Are_VENOM]

I', not big into labels, but I believe in the possibility of a supreme deity, though the biblical god I don't believe in as it doesn't make much sense.

Gotcha. I assume you are brushed up on Judeo-Christian theology. What doesn't make sense to you?

If you mean from 2006-now, no. I kicked Christianity to the curb long before 2006

Perhaps I can provide you some source material you may find interesting.

I have not seen any nor any proof of them being attributed to God.

But are you acknowledging that they (those things) happened?

[Diagoras]

We’re up to Page 8 on this thread, but I don’t see any strong argument against my claim of Job being a story from Post #2. I did provide a link.

I note that Post #10 (by Difflugia) provided some similar reasoning that this is a fictional moral tale, but again - no response to specifically counter it.

Surely one well-versed on biblical history would be able to point to parts of Job which were corroborated by known historical facts, if it were indeed true?

[JoeyKnothead]

We’re up to Page 8 on this thread, but I don’t see any strong argument against my claim of Job being a story from Post #2. I did provide a link.

I note that Post #10 (by Difflugia) provided some similar reasoning that this is a fictional moral tale, but again - no response to specifically counter it.

Surely one well-versed on biblical history would be able to point to parts of Job which were corroborated by known historical facts, if it were indeed true?

C'mon Diagoras, you're one of the smartest one of us we got here.

It's a known fact folks exist, and stuff happens. That's plain as the ears on a donkey's skull.

So, we can conclude Job mighta existed, and mighta done him some stuff. You're welcome for the schooling

[JoeyKnothead]

...
Even if we discount the otherwise implausible 140 years that he lived as an acceptable embellishment, if he and his wife had children at every single opportunity until they had the first ten, they must have been pushing sixty by the time the youngest was an adult, but they still found the vigor to have ten more children after that.

She was real pretty, and fertile as a Kansas corn field.
I think I've cracked the case!

With pologies... your post was a great take on the issue, I'm just upset I missed it when ya first put it up.

I propose the vast majority of biblical tales are best read as stories meant to offer some kind of lesson, and that these folks was country, and we country folks tend to exaggerate to prove a point. How else could we get dead folks catching Ubers?

This has been, if only for me, one of the best lessons I've learned on this site - the tales might have value, if they weren't so goofy.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #78]

Well, shoot… you keep deliverin’ them similes like… well, sump’n pretty gosh darn good at deliverin’, I reckon.

The point about learning from stories (one post up) though is one I agree with wholeheartedly. In our information-rich modern world, it’s easy to forget the power of a single moral tale within communities of the time. They’d likely be preached by early church leaders and have a more powerful effect than an administrative law imposed from Rome or elsewhere - in my opinion.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #78]
Well, shoot… you keep deliverin’ them similes like… well, sump’n pretty gosh darn good at deliverin’, I reckon.

Well Hell's bells you're country as grits! We's looking for us a fiddle player, and will your pretty thing drive ya home after practice, and can play the drums? And fetch after the beer - it's a deal breaker if they won't.

The point about learning from stories (one post up) though is one I agree with wholeheartedly. In our information-rich modern world, it’s easy to forget the power of a single moral tale within communities of the time. They’d likely be preached by early church leaders and have a more powerful effect than an administrative law imposed from Rome or elsewhere - in my opinion.

I remember we had a member on this site, and he taught me proud... The stories don't even hafta be real, long as we can learn us something us from em. That stuck with me like them grits your pretty thing makes :tableslappingemoji: