Free Will vs. Freedom From Suffering

[Paul of Tarsus]

Many apologists argue that we must suffer in order to have free will. It's a trade off that even God must bow to--we can either be morally free or free of suffering, but we cannot have both. We are told, for example:

...God can create people who are not morally free. Such a person would never harm anyone else, never fail to do good in any setting, and always be a beacon of right behavior. However, that would be more a machine than a person. A machine is neither good nor bad; it just does as it is programed to do. For people to be capable of genuine good deeds they must also be capable of evil deeds.

The implication here is that free will is the greatest good for us; to have free will is better than to be free of suffering. Or to put it another way, free will is so wonderful that it's worth the cost of sadness, fear, hatred, pain, sickness, dying and death, of course.

I'm not so sure, but what is your preference and why? Which would you choose if you could?

A. Free Will Along with the Attendant Suffering
or
B. A Happy and Peaceful World Full of Robotic Beacons of Light
or
C. A Combination of A and B

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't want to be a robot (naked of otherwise) I want to be able to make decisions for myself, not just be programmed to do what someone else wants.

There is still plenty of room for choice, creativity and love outside of moral free will, you can choose tea or coffer, pancake or fried eggs, football or baseball, painting or carving, harp or piano.

I was refering to "free will" as in the ability to make decisions. Without free will as I am using the term you would not be able to choose anything, tea or coffee, oils or watercolour, good or bad.






JW

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #22]

So are you okay with partial free will where the ability to make certain decisions is gone, in exchange for a world without suffering?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #22]

So are you okay with partial free ...

Free will as in the ability to make decisions is absolute. You either can make decisions or you cannot, there's no partiality. Nobody but God has the right to make the final section about everything; but the ability is there or it is not.



JW

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #24]

I am making the decision to shoot laser out of my eyes right now, I wish and I will yet nothing is happening. What is going on here, in terms of making decision? More importantly why can't it be the same when it comes to making the decision to kick a puppy?

[brunumb]

Free will as in the ability to make decisions is absolute. You either can make decisions or you cannot, there's no partiality.

Because you say so? I don't think so. If God is able to do anything, then he is able to create us to have free will but with some limitations. For all we know, that is already the case. How could you tell otherwise?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #24]

I am making the decision to shoot laser out of my eyes right now, I wish and I will yet nothing is happening.

Are you perhaps confusing...

The DECISION : I have decided to do this.
With ...
The CAPACITY :I have the ability to do what I have decided

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #27]

Great answer, so about that follow up question.

The DECISION : I have decided to kick this puppy.
The CAPACITY : I lack the ability to do what I have decided.

Sounds like a win, doesn't it.

[JehovahsWitness]

Free will as in the ability to make decisions is absolute. You either can make decisions or you cannot, there's no partiality.

Because you say so?

No because its logic. You can't you half have the ability to make a decision. Logically, a decision depends on the capacity to think (which you either have or do not have) and make choices (which you can do or not do). You chair does not have the capacity to choose who sits on it; there is no way for it to half have that capacity.

If God is able to do anything, then he is able to create us to have free will but with some limitations. For all we know, that is already the case. How could you tell otherwise?

Biblically, God has created us with free will*. Period. The limitations are not "partial free will" (a logical impossibility) but limitations on our capacity to do what we may decide. If I decide I wish to be a banana, then I have the capacity to decide (to be a banana). Can I follow through on my decision? No.


JW


* by "free will" I am refering to the ability to make decisions.


Logic


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #27]

Great answer, so about that follow up question.

The DECISION : I have decided to kick this puppy.
The CAPACITY : I lack the ability to do what I have decided.

Sounds like a win, doesn't it.

Lol...at least for the puppy. (What kind if sicko decides to kick a puppy?!)

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #27]

Great answer, so about that follow up question.

The DECISION : I have decided to kick this puppy.
The CAPACITY : I lack the ability to do what I have decided.

Sounds like a win, doesn't it.

Lol...at least for the puppy. (What kind if sicko decides to kick a puppy?!)

I think this was the entire point. No free will was removed from the person deciding to kick the puppy. Only the actual ability to do so has been taken away. Maybe even the person is allowed to kick towards the puppy, but god moves the puppy at the last second. This gives the god the 'proof of intent' that the person was indeed trying to kick the puppy (though an all knowing god should know this anyways) but removes all harm for the puppy. The god may then proceed to deal with the person as it sees fit.

I think the bigger question is not 'Why does god allow free will', but 'Why does god allow harm to his creation'? God would not be removing any choices from people intent on harm, only foiling them at every attempt. Seems like a better system if there was actually a god in charge, but I guess if there is one, it doesn't mind letting us 'actualize' the harm.

The current system in place let's any god continue hiding or seem like it's not there in the first place.