Christianity and violence

[nobspeople]

Does anything within the bible allow Christians to be violent towards non-Christians?

God demanded purity and strict obedience, and idolatry and blasphemy were punishable by death (Exodus 20:3, 5). Killing unbelievers was actually declared by popes Leo IV and John VIII to be spiritually beneficial for Christian soldiers: Their sins could be erased if they killed in defense of the Church. Even the whole 'wives submit to your husbands' can, and has, been used to justify violence.

Thoughts?

[Miles]

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In as much as "Christians," as such, did not exist in Biblical times, one has to take any clue allowing them to commit violence against non-Christians from the examples of such violence given in the Bible; which I think can reasonably be stated as: "Are there any verses wherein the righteous (those on the side of the god of Abraham) are permitted to commit violence against the unrighteous?" My answer is, yes there are. For example in Deuteronomy 20:16-18 we read:

16 “But when you take cities in the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you must kill everyone. 17 You must completely destroy all the people—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. The Lord your God has commanded you to do this. 18 So then they will not be able to teach you to sin against the Lord your God or to do any of the terrible things they do when they worship their gods.

And

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, 12:12
12 “Now, Israelites, listen! What does the Lord your God really want from you? The Lord your God wants you to respect him and do what he says. He wants you to love him and to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 13 So obey the laws and commands of the Lord that I am giving you today. These laws and commands are for your own good. . . .

12:12
"12 “These are the laws and rules that you must obey in your new land. You must carefully obey them as long as you live in this land. The Lord is the God of your ancestors, and he is giving this land to you. 2 You will take that land from the nations that live there now. You must completely destroy all the places where the people of these nations worship their gods. These places are on high mountains, on hills, and under green trees. 3 You must smash their altars and break their memorial stones into pieces. You must burn their Asherah poles and cut down the statues of their gods. Wipe out everything that would remind you of those gods.

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[theophile]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Does anything within the bible allow Christians to be violent towards non-Christians?

Yes. But it requires judgment of evil. And it is only justified if the violence is towards what is evil.
Evil suppresses and destroys life, and life, which is to say love of life and all that is for the good of life in this world, is what Christian's ought to strive for.

They should strive to carry on the work of Genesis 1-2 (and beyond). Living and creating the conditions for all life in this world (past, present and future). Destroying any evil that would take the world in a less full direction (like a good gardener). Going so far as flooding the world when it has become irredeemably evil. Or resurrecting the dead when the powers allow it...

So yes, insofar as the non-Christian is evil the answer is yes. It may very well be a time for violence. Christian love not only allows it but compels it.

[1213]

Does anything within the bible allow Christians to be violent towards non-Christians?

In Biblical point of view, a Christian is a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who remains in words of Jesus.

"If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And Jesus said for example:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

So, I don’t think Christians have any support for their violence.

[theophile]

Does anything within the bible allow Christians to be violent towards non-Christians?

In Biblical point of view, a Christian is a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who remains in words of Jesus.

"If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And Jesus said for example:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

So, I don’t think Christians have any support for their violence.

Sure, bless and forgive your enemy not just seven times, but seventy-seven. Do it as much as possible. However a point may come when violence towards evil is called for. It is one of the truths with the potential to make us free. To literally free us from evil, and its oppressive, life-destructive force.

[Tcg]

Sure, bless and forgive your enemy not just seven times, but seventy-seven. Do it as much as possible. However a point may come when violence towards evil is called for. It is one of the truths with the potential to make us free. To literally free us from evil, and its oppressive, life-destructive force.

Right. Just as Jesus said, love your enemies until they start to really bug you then beat them to the ground. Praise Jesus. Amen and amen.

Oh, and it wasn't seventy-seven, but seventy times seven. That'd be 490 for those keeping count.


Tcg

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Does anything within the bible allow Christians to be violent towards non-Christians?

Yes. But it requires judgment of evil. And it is only justified if the violence is towards what is evil.
Evil suppresses and destroys life, and life, which is to say love of life and all that is for the good of life in this world, is what Christian's ought to strive for.

They should strive to carry on the work of Genesis 1-2 (and beyond). Living and creating the conditions for all life in this world (past, present and future). Destroying any evil that would take the world in a less full direction (like a good gardener). Going so far as flooding the world when it has become irredeemably evil. Or resurrecting the dead when the powers allow it...

So yes, insofar as the non-Christian is evil the answer is yes. It may very well be a time for violence. Christian love not only allows it but compels it.

Our problem here is the utter inability of Christians to show their god even exists to have him an opinion on what's "evil", who'd then go on to commit their own evils about it.

[JoeyKnothead]

Does anything within the bible allow Christians to be violent towards non-Christians?

In Biblical point of view, a Christian is a disciple of Jesus. And a disciple of Jesus is a person who remains in words of Jesus.

"If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And Jesus said for example:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

So, I don’t think Christians have any support for their violence.

Sure, bless and forgive your enemy not just seven times, but seventy-seven. Do it as much as possible. However a point may come when violence towards evil is called for. It is one of the truths with the potential to make us free. To literally free us from evil, and its oppressive, life-destructive force.

Ah yes, the internet tough guy who'd threaten violence on folks in the name of a god they can't show exists.

[theophile]

Sure, bless and forgive your enemy not just seven times, but seventy-seven. Do it as much as possible. However a point may come when violence towards evil is called for. It is one of the truths with the potential to make us free. To literally free us from evil, and its oppressive, life-destructive force.

Right. Just as Jesus said, love your enemies until they start to really bug you then beat them to the ground. Praise Jesus. Amen and amen.

Oh, and it wasn't seventy-seven, but seventy times seven. That'd be 490 for those keeping count.


Tcg

Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

In other words, don't take Jesus' seemingly peaceful message to be a departure from all that came before...

And sure, 490. 77. Different translations but same point: forgive and forgive again. But there is a limit. (Jesus clearly didn't say "indefinitely" when asked the question.)

[theophile]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

Does anything within the bible allow Christians to be violent towards non-Christians?

Yes. But it requires judgment of evil. And it is only justified if the violence is towards what is evil.
Evil suppresses and destroys life, and life, which is to say love of life and all that is for the good of life in this world, is what Christian's ought to strive for.

They should strive to carry on the work of Genesis 1-2 (and beyond). Living and creating the conditions for all life in this world (past, present and future). Destroying any evil that would take the world in a less full direction (like a good gardener). Going so far as flooding the world when it has become irredeemably evil. Or resurrecting the dead when the powers allow it...

So yes, insofar as the non-Christian is evil the answer is yes. It may very well be a time for violence. Christian love not only allows it but compels it.

Our problem here is the utter inability of Christians to show their god even exists to have him an opinion on what's "evil", who'd then go on to commit their own evils about it.

I gave an indication of what evil is. We don't need God to tell us, nor do we need to show God exists in order to get to a notion of it. Remove God from the equation for all I care.

Again, if the main Christian principle is love, which I defined as love of life (whether that living breathing thing is a neighbor, an enemy, God, or whatever other framing Jesus used), then evil is anything that counters the expression of life in this world. It is anything that is oppressive or even destructive to life.

We can hold to this principle of love (of life) with or without God. We can and should affirm life on our own accord (and in this way find a unity with God that reaches all the way back to Genesis 1). We can also discern evil on our own (knowledge of good and evil being something that we are all meant to have and employ). I'm not saying it's easy, or that it's clear when the line is crossed and we should take up the sword, but only that there is a line. And once crossed, Christian love compels it.

Some examples? Totalitarian regimes that would enslave or wipe out differences among us. Systemic barriers to women, people of color, LGBTQ persons, etc. Environmentally destructive industries. Unfair financial systems that keep people in poverty... Etc. Etc.

Do we need God to tell us these things are evil? Do we need God to dismantle / deconstruct / destroy them and make the world a better place for us all? ...