Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

[Avoice]

Christians hold Jesus to be God. At least most of them believe this.

They believe God died to pay the price for the sins of man.

I'd like to know just who is he paying this price to ? Himself?

Christians believe man can kill God. That's absurd.
It's just as rediculous as God dying so he can pay himself.

Christians see the God of the (falsely called) old testament angry and having little compassion. But claim Jesus to be loving and merciful. What mercy is there in the (falsely called) new testament?
Who is merciful?

Let's compare the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A god who forgives our sins if we just acknowledge them and change our ways? A God who says one sins will not even be remembered.

Or the Christian God Jesus? ACCORDING to Christianity SOMEONE HAS TO PAY THE PRICE.
Imagine a courtroom and God sitting on the bench. A criminal is told he will be put in prison if he does not pay the million dollar fine. He has no money. He is led out if the courtroom to begin his sentence when someone stands up and tells the judge (god) that he'll pay the million dollars. God accepts the money and then let's the criminal go free.
Where's the mercy? A merciful judge doesn't demand someone pay the price.
How is Christianity's opinion of god merciful?
A merciful God shows mercy. How is a demand of payment merciful?

[Purple Knight]

This is something that deeply befuddles me as well. Now God made these laws of the universe that demand a price be paid for a wrong. ...

I think something has been misunderstood, if people think so, because Jesus and his disciples forgave sins without any payment structure.

I would think Jesus has that authority to forgive sins because of the price he would ultimately pay. Even if it happens in the future from when he's saying he has that authority, it was always going to happen, and if it didn't have nonlinear consequences, nobody who sinned and died before Jesus came would ever go to Heaven.

As far as whether people can forgive each other, of course they can, because it doesn't mean anything. If you cut off my hand, you haven't wronged me; you've wronged God. I can say I forgive you and that's a good thing for me to do, for me, but again, it doesn't mean anything or fill the debt-hole. I'm not a moral authority; I can't simply poof up moral rules such as "don't cut off my hand" and cosmically enforce them. I'm therefore not someone who is capable of being wronged. But if God is upset that you cut off my hand, that's another story. God is a moral authority and can poof up rules such as, "Don't cut off Purple Knight's hand."

[We_Are_VENOM]

If the death of Jesus was not payment for forgiveness because people were able to receive forgiveness prior to his death, then wouldn't people have retained their ability to be forgiven without the sacrifice of Jesus? If people would have retained their ability to be forgiven without the sacrifice of Jesus, then how was the "good news" Jesus was preaching not old news?

There was a different atonement system in play prior to Jesus.

If the people who received forgiveness after the sacrifice of Jesus continued to experience death as the wage of sin in the same manner as the people who received forgiveness before the sacrifice of Jesus, how did the sacrifice of Jesus function as payment for sin if death was and continues to be earned by everyone without exception as the wage of sin regardless of whether they've been forgiven of their sins or not?

Jesus said I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

John 11:25-26

It is not about the physical death we should concern ourselves..it is the spiritual death.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Jesus didn't pay anything because he didn't stay dead.

Words cannot express just how much of a non sequitur this is.

[brunumb]

Jesus didn't pay anything because he didn't stay dead.

Words cannot express just how much of a non sequitur this is.

At least you stayed true to your MO and didn't attempt to explain your opinion.

[tokutter]

jesus: knock knock

tokutter: who's there?

jesus: it's me jesus

tokutter: what do you want

jesus: to save you

tokutter: save me from what

jesus: save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me save you.

This *god* who knew what he was doing and what the results would be............**stacked the deck** and wants us to pay him a *vig* for eternity...

[nobspeople]

jesus: knock knock

tokutter: who's there?

jesus: it's me jesus

tokutter: what do you want

jesus: to save you

tokutter: save me from what

jesus: save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me save you.

This *god* who knew what he was doing and what the results would be............**stacked the deck** and wants us to pay him a *vig* for eternity...

Just about a perfect summation of the situation. It makes little to no sense.
I've always thought Christianity to be a self serving, circular belief system, when one looks at it logically.

[1213]

...
As far as whether people can forgive each other, of course they can, because it doesn't mean anything. If you cut off my hand, you haven't wronged me; you've wronged God. I can say I forgive you and that's a good thing for me to do, for me, but again, it doesn't mean anything or fill the debt-hole. ...

If there still is a dept-hole that must be filled, I don’t think there really has been forgiveness. But, I understand that if for example your hand is cut, only payment that would be correct would be to give you a new working hand. Forgiving that would mean that one settles to the situation and doesn’t require payment.

[We_Are_VENOM]

At least you stayed true to your MO and didn't attempt to explain your opinion.

I also stay true to my MO by pointing out logical fallacies.

Some of yours, too.

[bluegreenearth]

If the death of Jesus was not payment for forgiveness because people were able to receive forgiveness prior to his death, then wouldn't people have retained their ability to be forgiven without the sacrifice of Jesus? If people would have retained their ability to be forgiven without the sacrifice of Jesus, then how was the "good news" Jesus was preaching not old news?

There was a different atonement system in play prior to Jesus.

What was wrong with the previous atonement system?

If the people who received forgiveness after the sacrifice of Jesus continued to experience death as the wage of sin in the same manner as the people who received forgiveness before the sacrifice of Jesus, how did the sacrifice of Jesus function as payment for sin if death was and continues to be earned by everyone without exception as the wage of sin regardless of whether they've been forgiven of their sins or not?

Jesus said I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

John 11:25-26

It is not about the physical death we should concern ourselves..it is the spiritual death.

So, all people prior to Jesus experienced a spiritual death regardless of whether they were forgiven or not?

[We_Are_VENOM]

What was wrong with the previous atonement system?

No offense, but does it matter? Beyond satisfying your curiosity..does it matter?

God changes the way he deals with people over time, as he sees fit.

Plain and simple.

So, all people prior to Jesus experienced a spiritual death regardless of whether they were forgiven or not?

Spiritual death is when God is "separated" from you...just like physical death is when your spirit is separated from your body.

According to the system in play prior to Jesus, those people who acted according to the system were forgiven, and saved.