Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

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Avoice
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Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #1

Post by Avoice »

Christians hold Jesus to be God. At least most of them believe this.

They believe God died to pay the price for the sins of man.

I'd like to know just who is he paying this price to ? Himself?

Christians believe man can kill God. That's absurd.
It's just as rediculous as God dying so he can pay himself.

Christians see the God of the (falsely called) old testament angry and having little compassion. But claim Jesus to be loving and merciful. What mercy is there in the (falsely called) new testament?
Who is merciful?

Let's compare the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A god who forgives our sins if we just acknowledge them and change our ways? A God who says one sins will not even be remembered.

Or the Christian God Jesus? ACCORDING to Christianity SOMEONE HAS TO PAY THE PRICE.
Imagine a courtroom and God sitting on the bench. A criminal is told he will be put in prison if he does not pay the million dollar fine. He has no money. He is led out if the courtroom to begin his sentence when someone stands up and tells the judge (god) that he'll pay the million dollars. God accepts the money and then let's the criminal go free.
Where's the mercy? A merciful judge doesn't demand someone pay the price.
How is Christianity's opinion of god merciful?
A merciful God shows mercy. How is a demand of payment merciful?

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #31

Post by Purple Knight »

1213 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:04 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:04 am ...
As far as whether people can forgive each other, of course they can, because it doesn't mean anything. If you cut off my hand, you haven't wronged me; you've wronged God. I can say I forgive you and that's a good thing for me to do, for me, but again, it doesn't mean anything or fill the debt-hole. ...
If there still is a dept-hole that must be filled, I don’t think there really has been forgiveness. But, I understand that if for example your hand is cut, only payment that would be correct would be to give you a new working hand.
That's the basic idea of payment for a debt that is incurred due to a wrong. It's been extended to simply punishing people who can't shop me a new automail hand out of spare parts, and we still say, the debt is paid.

But I absolutely insist that I am not a moral being, so you can't wrong me. I have no moral authority. I can't just unilaterally put moral rules on you not to chop off my hand. You might have the idea that you can chop off my hand and it's at least as good as my idea that you can't. If we're morally equal, this is a stalemate.
1213 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:04 pmForgiving that would mean that one settles to the situation and doesn’t require payment.
I agree. This then comes round to why Jesus had to die at all.

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #32

Post by 1213 »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am ...
But I absolutely insist that I am not a moral being, so you can't wrong me. I have no moral authority. I can't just unilaterally put moral rules on you not to chop off my hand. You might have the idea that you can chop off my hand and it's at least as good as my idea that you can't. If we're morally equal, this is a stalemate...
I personally like the idea of what you want to be done to you, do to others. Basically, that means, what right you take, you also give to others. If I would decide to cut your hand, I would give the same right to you and you could do the same to me and I simply would have no argument to defend myself.

Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Matt. 7:12

I think that is the only objective moral.
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 amI agree. This then comes round to why Jesus had to die at all.
Bible gives three reasons:

1. It was foretold that it would happen, so it kind of had to happen for the prophesy to be true.
2. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9
3. Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24
That means, by dying Jesus could be raised from death, which would give courage to his disciples to continue and that would take care that the message is preached to all nations. Without it, his disciples were afraid and would not have had courage to continue and endure all the suffering that was coming.

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #33

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:51 pm Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24
:? How does a dead grain of wheat bear much fruit?
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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #34

Post by bjs1 »

brunumb wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:08 am
bjs1 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:16 pm The sacrifice that mercy requires was paid by Jesus Christ on the cross so that redemption would be possible for anyone who wants it.
Jesus didn't pay anything because he didn't stay dead. Pretty much like John making a bank transfer payment for the broken window on Friday and then reversing the transfer on Sunday.
This would suggest that sacrifice is fundamentally impossible. Most theist believe in a positive after life, so they don’t “stay dead.” Most non-theists believe that death leads to an end of all suffering through non-existence, which makes death a balm rather than a curse. Do you think that there is anyway anyone can make a meaningful sacrifice?
brunumb wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:08 am I don't see how mercy necessarily requires a sacrifice. Offering forgiveness without payment is true mercy given out of love. Gods can't be killed so the whole God/Jesus thing is more like an underhanded business transaction to manipulate gullible human beings.
This is contradictory. If someone offers “forgiveness without payment” then that person must continue without receiving a payment that was due them. So they must suffer a sacrifice. After saying that you don’t see how mercy requires sacrifice, your own words point to how mercy requires sacrifice.
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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #35

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:17 pm
1213 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:51 pm Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24
:? How does a dead grain of wheat bear much fruit?
I have understood the point is, when seed falls to the ground, it will later sprout and grow and produce more than what it was on its own. In this case fruit means something that one produces. Fruit does not mean always in Bible fruit as modern biological definition tells. For example, works you do, can also be called fruits, all though you probably are not some kind of tree.

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #36

Post by Purple Knight »

1213 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:51 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am ...
But I absolutely insist that I am not a moral being, so you can't wrong me. I have no moral authority. I can't just unilaterally put moral rules on you not to chop off my hand. You might have the idea that you can chop off my hand and it's at least as good as my idea that you can't. If we're morally equal, this is a stalemate...
I personally like the idea of what you want to be done to you, do to others. Basically, that means, what right you take, you also give to others. If I would decide to cut your hand, I would give the same right to you and you could do the same to me and I simply would have no argument to defend myself.
I like it too, but you wouldn't even need an argument to defend yourself. Someone else would need an argument - a flawless one - to declare what you did to be wrong. And for that, they would need someone with moral authority. You've got that; you've got the Bible. But without it, or another moral authority, nobody can just put the Golden Rule on you and saddle you with it. As fair as it is, nobody without moral authority can saddle you with any rule you don't want to follow. They would need absolute proof that what you did was wrong.
1213 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:51 pmBible gives three reasons:

1. It was foretold that it would happen, so it kind of had to happen for the prophesy to be true.
2. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9
3. Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24
That means, by dying Jesus could be raised from death, which would give courage to his disciples to continue and that would take care that the message is preached to all nations. Without it, his disciples were afraid and would not have had courage to continue and endure all the suffering that was coming.
If it's about the message, then so be it, Jesus was a martyr for the message. But if God can just forgive everyone without sacrificing a living being, then maybe he should.

If the only reason I have to hear the message in the first place is so that I can accept Jesus and be forgiven, but Jesus isn't necessary for me to be forgiven, just for me to hear the message, then it seems I could just be forgiven and nobody had to die.

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #37

Post by brunumb »

bjs1 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:31 pm This would suggest that sacrifice is fundamentally impossible. Most theist believe in a positive after life, so they don’t “stay dead.” Most non-theists believe that death leads to an end of all suffering through non-existence, which makes death a balm rather than a curse. Do you think that there is anyway anyone can make a meaningful sacrifice?
If you are an atheist, then giving up the only life you will ever have is most definitely a sacrifice. Christians should be more than willing to offer their lives to help others because they get to go to heaven as a reward. As an atheist, you have no expectation of anything at all. It's not even balm. Do you not think that people giving up their lives to protect others is a sacrifice when those people have no expectation of existing afterwards?
brunumb wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:08 am I don't see how mercy necessarily requires a sacrifice. Offering forgiveness without payment is true mercy given out of love. Gods can't be killed so the whole God/Jesus thing is more like an underhanded business transaction to manipulate gullible human beings.
bjs1 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:31 pm This is contradictory. If someone offers “forgiveness without payment” then that person must continue without receiving a payment that was due them. So they must suffer a sacrifice. After saying that you don’t see how mercy requires sacrifice, your own words point to how mercy requires sacrifice.
What payment is God requiring and why? He can't offer mercy to mankind without demanding that someone pays for it and so he accepts the death of Jesus instead. What has God sacrificed? What has Jesus sacrificed? Neither really lost anything. As I said, demanding payment for being merciful makes it a business transaction and hardly equates to a loving act on the part of God/Jesus.
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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #38

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:56 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:17 pm
1213 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:51 pm Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24
:? How does a dead grain of wheat bear much fruit?
I have understood the point is, when seed falls to the ground, it will later sprout and grow and produce more than what it was on its own. In this case fruit means something that one produces. Fruit does not mean always in Bible fruit as modern biological definition tells. For example, works you do, can also be called fruits, all though you probably are not some kind of tree.
I get what you are saying but not how death comes into it. Dead seeds don't do anything but rot.
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #39

Post by bjs1 »

brunumb wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:16 pm
If you are an atheist, then giving up the only life you will ever have is most definitely a sacrifice. Christians should be more than willing to offer their lives to help others because they get to go to heaven as a reward. As an atheist, you have no expectation of anything at all. It's not even balm. Do you not think that people giving up their lives to protect others is a sacrifice when those people have no expectation of existing afterwards?
Sacrifice requires the experience of loss. A person who does not exist cannot experience anything, including loss.

Now personally I think that whole thing is absurd. It is equally absurd to suggest that it would not be a sacrifice for Jesus to die on the cross as it would be to suggest that it is not a sacrifice for a person to give up his life for his family, regardless of what he thinks lays beyond the grave.

However, if we are going to discuss an absurd position then we should at least apply the absurdity across the board.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Jesus paid the price? Paid who? What mercy?

Post #40

Post by 1213 »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:05 pm I like it too, but you wouldn't even need an argument to defend yourself. Someone else would need an argument - a flawless one - to declare what you did to be wrong. And for that, they would need someone with moral authority. You've got that; you've got the Bible...
I think the person whose hand is cut is rightful to say is it wrong. Also, if I would be cutting someone’s hand, I should ask first from myself, do I allow the other to do the same to me. If I would answer, "no, it is wrong", then I can’t also do that to the other person, because I have said it is wrong. :)
Last edited by 1213 on Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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